altered chords

[zuul777]

can somebody please elaborate on these? preferably for use in jazz/rock.

i know you should only alter dominant chords, not m/M7 's

...but i dont know much else!!

thanks!

[Docktor Rocktor]

um, dude, you can alter anything. pick up a book on music theory, this is far outside the scope of this forum. or, just learn some scales and make up your own chords. contrary to popular belief, a chord does not need to contain fifths, thirds, or octaves, or even the root. It only needs to have the notes that sound good, and your ear is the only final arbiter, although knowing some chord theory definitely helps. Cheers.

[WattsUrizen]

Actually, a chord always has a root. It may be ambiguous, but in each chord there is always a root. Of course, I'm taking it out of context.

 

As for altered chords, Docktor Rocktor is right. Just follow your ears. Harmony is about voice-leading, not following specific rules regarding progressions. Just make sure each voice in the chord has a good melody.

[zuul777]

 

Originally posted by Docktor Rocktor um, dude, you can alter anything. pick up a book on music theory, this is far outside the scope of this forum. or, just learn some scales and make up your own chords. contrary to popular belief, a chord does not need to contain fifths, thirds, or octaves, or even the root. It only needs to have the notes that sound good, and your ear is the only final arbiter, although knowing some chord theory definitely helps. Cheers.

 

 

i actually am fairly good with understanding some relatively advanced theory and writing music. i just never knew any basic 'easy possibilities" for alterations. of course, i make my own with my ears, but often times i find the naturally occuring chords best fit, and sometimes when i want something different, it takes longer than i want it to to find, and thats why i was just wondering if there was some easy way to figure out the alterations.

 

anomandaris--- so, its about leading, right? so when i want to transition between two chords using an altered chord, i might want to find a voice that leads to the same voice in the other chord? like a passing tone or combiata?

[SirGarrote]

Yeah...i've studied music theory for a while now at the college level, and they always tell us that it's usually best to have step-wise motion in the voices. That would mean that preparing a note in a previous chord, or by using stepwise motion, would sound the best. And remember to avoid parallel fifths and octaves, it's a common rule, but i'll be damned if it doesn't work!

 

so yeah...STEPWISE MOTION!!! hehe

 

-G

[zuul777]

haha yeah i learned about not having parallel 5ths and octaves too, and it seemed too much of a hassle to try to fix peices that they accidentally sneak into. like, it isnt worth having to change the last 3 chords in order to not have a parallel octave one time. (IMHO)

 

so the alterations of the chords would sometimes help in voice leading....

 

in the ii V I progression, why is it said that the V should often be altered?i read this in a jazz theory book. it didnt elaborate much on it...

 

 

thanks

[SirGarrote]

i must admit, i dont know much about jazz theory....i've only been trained classically, so I cna't help ya with specific cases unless you're talking classical. But keep in mind that altered chords exist to spice things up....not to make something new...know what i mean? If you alter the V chord in your example, the chord will still act like a V...it'll just sound different. I also like to think that altered chords should be used sparingly...because when you DO use them...the listener will be quite surprised.

 

Good luck with all of this!

 

-G

[WattsUrizen]

The tendency to move into and away from dissonance by stepwise motion is because it decreases tension. Moving by leaps larger than a third can increase tension and prolong dissonance. Stepwise motion is useful, but so is skipwise. Just be aware of what the effects of each are.

 

That little rule (stupid rule, IMO) about parallel fifths and octaves is because of the sonority involved with these intervals. They are very 'open' sounding, and don't have the colour of the other intervals. I wouldn't pay attention to the rule, I'd pay attention to why that rule existed, and understand the sound that arises from parallel fifths and octaves.

 

Music theory is useless unless you are aware of what it means in a practical or applied sense. You need to understand how the theory works in a piece, and understand how you can use it for your benefit, and you need to be aware of how the theory sounds.

[medspec]

I believe anything goes...but I also believe you need to know the rules to break them. Go with what sounds right...voice leading can be important, and is nice, I find, if done internally. That is, within the chord structure.

[Docktor Rocktor]

Sorry, when I said a chord doesn't need to have a root, I meant that the root doesn't actually have to be played, per se, but it is of course, always at least implied.

The V chord is often altered partly just to distinguish it from the I, sonically they are very consonant, and sometimes a V chord can unintentionally "resolve" a progression that it's not meant to. And in a ii V i progression, the V chord lends itself easily to playing a dominant 7, which is probably the most common alteration.

For starters, try playing minor chords when theory would dictate major, or try throwing an 11th or 9th in there. Try playing the notes in a weird order, i.e. use a phrasing where the third is the lowest note, then the fifth, or whatever.

Substitutions are no different than just playing a different chord, it's just a difference in how you think about them. "By the book" substitutions tend to give a "by the book" sound to your playing, an it's great to know them for when you're jamming with friends, or playing standards with a band you don't know that well. They won't wince when you play C7+9 over a C chord.

But when you're actually writing songs (which I presume you are, given the forum), and you want to liven up a boring progression, put aside the rule book and experiment. let your ears be the guide. The whole idea is to create and relieve tension to manipulate the emotions and expectations of the audience in a controlled way.

P.S. I don't mean to sound condescending, it's just the way God made me. Sorry if that's how I come across. Cheers.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Docktor Rocktor Sorry, when I said a chord doesn't need to have a root, I meant that the root doesn't actually have to be played, per se, but it is of course, always at least implied.

 

 

Yup.

 

However, this is in context.

 

If you play chords in isolation, there is always a root. Possibly ambiguous, but it is always there, and not merely implied.