gitting started

[mccoyson]

I would like to express in music and song some of the emotional and often tragic events that have happened to me in my life. Playing guitar by its self has been a great joy and stress releaver for me but I would also like to express myself and my emotions with song. I have tried to write some things but am not satisfied with my work so far. Is there a process that can be used as a starting point. It is very frusterating to have these emotions and not be able to fully express them.

[seahorse]

Just write on paper what you want to express. Don't worry about making it into a song. Get the thought out of your head and on the paper. Sometimes the song will come from this, and sometimes you'll get a song idea that you didn't expect.

[BryanMichael]

Hello-

I've stated this many times in other threads, but IMO your first steps in any endeavor should be some research.

There are misconceptions that people just "can write" or "can't" or that some miracle muse visits people to "inspire them" to write great songs.

 

While this MAY be true in some instances, usually it is craft and practice that hone things into satisfactory songs.

 

There is also the great perpetual view (especially here, but not as much in some more dedicated songwriters forums, where craft is viewed outside of style and genre- something that most people can't get past here for whatever reason) that "there are no rules so write what you want and no one can tell you different..."

Which TECHNICALLY is true, but then why bother to post somewhere? Just to re-enforce your own views and make you feel better?

 

SO-

 

I would head down to your local library, it's free! and check out a few books on the subject. Some you will not like, some you will.

 

But what they will all share is an idea of form and structure- something that is present in every style or genre of popular (rock, pop, r&b, heavy metal, country, etc.....) music, and deals more with how to view songs as narrative and how to structure thoughts and view the song outside of stylistic prejudices while still understanding that language and other anomalies exist in different genres for different purposes.

 

Some books I'd recommend are actually "The idiot's guide to SOngwriting" from that "Idiot's guide" series. It's actually a pretty easy and useful overview! And my favorite: "Writing Better Lyrics" by Pat Pattison. There are some others that offer a "workbook" approach which may be helpful, but IMO The Shelia Davis books are far too focused on the theoretical and structural parts- they suck the life and enjoyment out of the process for me and the Pamela Phillips Orland (?) books are, well, IMO very cliche!

 

At it's core, lyric writing is language-it has to work on some logical level (unless you are the exception like REM or some others- this is not to say that the "rules" cannot be broken or bent, but if you start out with linear thinking, the abstract becomes more fruitful and the linear will engage more people)

Shifts in perspective need to be explained, over-wrought metaphors and similes tend not to convey what the writer thinks they convey, and word choices are very important.

 

Scroll down the forum and read some of the similar threads that address some of these issues.

 

If you want, I haven't done this in a long time- you can send me a lyric and I will write a full critique of it and email it back to you. Of course this is still just my opinion, but you may find it useful, or not.

 

-B

[bhutos]

this might sound it's it's one of those "excuses to buy new toys" things, but i seriously only moved forward as a lone songwriter once i got hold of an 8 track recorder. When you are getting started it's kinda hard to sing and play guitar at the same time and remember or record it.. or write a lead guitar part you might remember. I found that a multitrack recorder really let me flesh out and meld together my ideas into songs rather than just have a series of isolated guitar riffs or vocal parts.

That way i could record everything and come back to it and gradually build layers over what would have otherwise remained single parts. But thats just me and my situation and the way i do things... maybe the 8 track just made me sit down and pay attention to what i was doing and focus for longer periods of time whereas some other people might start by writing lyrics and then play some chords and write everything down on paper.. thats wasn't me.. i recorded everything then went back and cherry picked different ideas and relearnt to play riffs as i needed them. sloppy but i found it effective for my rather unprofessional needs.

[mccoyson]

Thanks for the feedback all. I have been looking for a cheap recorder. Any recomendations?

[digitalsnipe]

In my comfortable ignorance of the conventions of good writing I must make the observation that your post here is a clearly understood message that communicates more than just words. You can write.

 

There is some good advice on this thread about doing some research on the subject of writing. Research is unto itself the most boring thing one could demand of oneself, especially when it is for a subjective pursuit - creativity. Switching off the creativity to acquire the knowledge to ultimately come back to it is a rather tough thing to do. It requires quite a bit of self-discipline.

 

I don't completely subscribe to the notion. Never thought much about how-to material when the whole of music is based in creativity. I agree there are conventions to writing that describe structures, methods, persona, cadence, et al, in academically defined standards. That's where I make my departure and qualify it by asking myself not to subordinate myself to conventions in every aspect of my life - especially music. I give myself the time (patience) to let the music itself create its own developments. It is not without frustrations but, then again, a working knowledge of conventional writing standards doesn't necessarily produce good writing. I find that if I really enjoy something it is better if I don't give it an agenda or hang importance upon it. If I work it hard, it hardly works.

 

Learn the basics of writing but don't look to it to turn you into someone you may not be. You can already communicate a good message and obviously you know your audience. Always keep those 2 things in mind and you will do alright.

[BryanMichael]

 

Originally posted by digitalsnipe In my comfortable ignorance of the conventions of good writing I must make the observation that your post here is a clearly understood message that communicates more than just words. You can write. There is some good advice on this thread about doing some research on the subject of writing. Research is unto itself the most boring thing one could demand of oneself, especially when it is for a subjective pursuit - creativity. Switching off the creativity to acquire the knowledge to ultimately come back to it is a rather tough thing to do. It requires quite a bit of self-discipline. I don't completely subscribe to the notion. Never thought much about how-to material when the whole of music is based in creativity. I agree there are conventions to writing that describe structures, methods, persona, cadence, et al, in academically defined standards. That's where I make my departure and qualify it by asking myself not to subordinate myself to conventions in every aspect of my life - especially music. I give myself the time (patience) to let the music itself create its own developments. It is not without frustrations but, then again, a working knowledge of conventional writing standards doesn't necessarily produce good writing. I find that if I really enjoy something it is better if I don't give it an agenda or hang importance upon it. If I work it hard, it hardly works. Learn the basics of writing but don't look to it to turn you into someone you may not be. You can already communicate a good message and obviously you know your audience. Always keep those 2 things in mind and you will do alright.

 

 

Understanding the processes involved in creating anything- even "art" have NEVER made someone a "worse" artist.

 

Theory has never made a musician worse

Learning to draw accurately has never hindered one from exploring abstraction

Learing to craft words and language into evokative pictures has never made a novelist or writer worse

Understanding the conventions of craft have never made a songwriter or any other creative person worse- not understanding them, in my experience has.

 

The idea that everything springs from "creativity" and not from a meeting of the disciplined and creative sides of the mind is a huge misconception IMO- Some people may flow more freely from one to the other, but I can't think of any songwriters that have made any lasting contribution (to me personally or in the grand scheme) that didn't follow the conventional forms to a great degree in either content or structure. In fact I can;t think of any artists of any kind that didn't spend considerable amounts of time studying all the conventions of their craft.

 

"research" for something like this has always been lots of fun for me, and infinitely inspirational, the same as taking an acting class or doing a novel writing workshop or taking a painting class or reading an article about how a songwriter sets up their time for writing- it's just information, what you DO with it is up to you.

If you are only going to write for yourself and don;t care if anyone ever hears or gets anything out of what you write, then there is no need to do anything at all. you can {censored} in a jar and call it "art". But if you want to "convey" anything, then you have to give the receiver of what you are trying to convey a form in which they can understand what it is that you are conveying.

 

Example:

 

Lyric:

"The shoienc wiohc qp c apeihc pap n piojsnd eih p snei a ioe nc"

 

It conveys nothing to the intended receiver because it cannot be understood in a wayt that the receiver needs to understand it.

But perhaps to ME it means that "my heart is breaking with anguish and the world is so {censored}ed up I can't bear to go on"

So why bother to ask for any input? no one will "understand" my lyric anyway so I should just keep it the way it is and declare I am a great songwriter.

 

That is an extreme example, but the idea is the same.

 

B

[digitalsnipe]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael Understanding the processes involved in creating anything- even "art" have NEVER made someone a "worse" artist. Theory has never made a musician worse Learning to draw accurately has never hindered one from exploring abstraction Learing to craft words and language into evokative pictures has never made a novelist or writer worse Understanding the conventions of craft have never made a songwriter or any other creative person worse- not understanding them, in my experience has. "research" for something like this has always been lots of fun for me, and infinitely inspirational, the same as taking an acting class or doing a novel writing workshop or taking a painting class or reading an article about how a songwriter sets up their time for writing- it's just information, what you DO with it is up to you. If you are only going to write for yourself and don;t care if anyone ever hears or gets anything out of what you write, then there is no need to do anything at all. you can {censored} in a jar and call it "art". But if you want to "convey" anything, then you have to give the receiver of what you are trying to convey a form in which they can understand what it is that you are conveying. Example: Lyric: "The shoienc wiohc qp c apeihc pap n piojsnd eih p snei a ioe nc" It conveys nothing to the intended receiver because it cannot be understood in a wayt that the receiver needs to understand it. But perhaps to ME it means that "my heart is breaking with anguish and the world is so {censored}ed up I can't bear to go on" So why bother to ask for any input? no one will "understand" my lyric anyway so I should just keep it the way it is and declare I am a great songwriter. That is an extreme example, but the idea is the same. B

 

 

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Well, I don't think I mentioned or even gave hint to any of your suggestions making a person worse for having taken them. That one is on you.

 

In my closing statement I did suggest learning the basics of writing but with it I asked that temperance be given the notion that knowledge alone is essential to good writing, or creating a good writer. Like you mentioned - it's what one does with the knowledge - and with this statement you are in agreement with me, albeit unknowingly and most likely reluctantly at this point.

 

There is some sense of angst in the above quote. Are you that way because I am who I am, do what I do the way I choose to do it and don't mind saying so? Or, are you a champion of academics and take up the sword against anyone even remotely contrary to such philosophy? Remember, you stated you enjoy research and don't know anyone, who impressed you, who didn't do research. I don't disdain learning something. That is a ridiculous notion that you seem to have inferred from my post.

 

But, this thread isn't about you or me or our ability to display grand communication skills. It's about the author's request for help. I think he did it clearly, honestly, and conveyed a message that communicated to me his ability to move his audience. That alone is telling of his abilities and I told him so. I suggested to him to learn the basics of writing and with that he should do okay.

Any other message conveyed was only the way I see myself with my music. I doubt that my view is without like company on this forum, or site for that matter. Nor does yours. Some of us like to learn things on our own. Evidently you cringe at the thought and feel the need to reign in such cavalier thinking. Not everyone is a student as you would have them defined.

[BryanMichael]

Originally posted by digitalsnipe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I don't think I mentioned or even gave hint to any of your suggestions making a person worse for having taken them. That one is on you. In my closing statement I did suggest learning the basics of writing but with it I asked that temperance be given the notion that knowledge alone is essential to good writing, or creating a good writer. Like you mentioned - it's what one does with the knowledge - and with this statement you are in agreement with me, albeit unknowingly and most likely reluctantly at this point. There is some sense of angst in the above quote. Are you that way because I am who I am, do what I do the way I choose to do it and don't mind saying so? Or, are you a champion of academics and take up the sword against anyone even remotely contrary to such philosophy? Remember, you stated you enjoy research and don't know anyone, who impressed you, who didn't do research. I don't disdain learning something. That is a ridiculous notion that you seem to have inferred from my post. But, this thread isn't about you or me or our ability to display grand communication skills. It's about the author's request for help. I think he did it clearly, honestly, and conveyed a message that communicated to me his ability to move his audience. That alone is telling of his abilities and I told him so. I suggested to him to learn the basics of writing and with that he should do okay. Any other message conveyed was only the way I see myself with my music. I doubt that my view is without like company on this forum, or site for that matter. Nor does yours. Some of us like to learn things on our own. Evidently you cringe at the thought and feel the need to reign in such cavalier thinking. Not everyone is a student as you would have them defined.

 

Calm down man! You are projecting a {censored}LOAD of stuff onto me from that post!

I was not implying, inferring, or connotating anything 'against' you or your departure from any methods described!

 

I am not trying to "define" anyone.

 

I'm merely expressing an idea that is sorely lost in these here parts, that things CAN be learned and improved upon and that there is TONS of material out there by people that have actually been doing something with their "art" (songwriting) instead of just singing into a tape recorder for their own personal enjoyment. Not that there is anythng wrong with that!

I'm not trying to reign in anyones 'cavalier thinking' (although I do think that thinking one is so cavalier is probably the biggest ego boast I've heard in quite some time) and it goes back to my point that you can {censored} in a jar and call it art. No one can REALLY argue with that. It is as you say it is. My point was merely that if you wish to bring anyone at all besides yourself into understanding or communion with your art you must provide SOME kind of common structure or basis that you both share- the song FORM is that structure. You are under no obligation to to use or work within it if you do not desire, but it is exactlly as I posted above- what do you get out of the lyric:

"The shoienc wiohc qp c apeihc pap n piojsnd eih p snei a ioe nc"

?

 

I can say it means whatever i want to say it means and you can't REALLY disagree with me- because I define it as my art. But in all seriousness, is anyone going to truly understand that it is about my heartbreak and how {censored}ed up the world is?

No.

 

I have to provide some kind of common ground to communicate.

 

 

Don;t be so defensive.

B