A question about "opening up"

[tapeman1]

I've never had a new guitar long enough for it to open up for me. I've either purchased them new and gotten rid of them quickly, or purchased them old and they had already done all of the opening up they were going to do. Here's my question, when a guitar "opens up" does that usually have any effect on the volume and projection, or just the tone?

[OrvilleGibson]

Here's my opinion, FWIW:

 

It can have an effect on all three, depending on the guitar. For the guitars I've made, they all take about a year before everything really comes together. Other builders seem to be around the same time frame, too. Projection is a little harder to judge unless you have other people play your guitars, but you can definitely hear a difference.

 

I'm assuming that you're not asking for opinions on why breaking in happens, how to accellerate it, etc., so I'll not comment further.

[tapeman1]

So you're saying it will make a noticable difference in volume?

[gorymonkey]

what does opening up mean, this word is totally foriegn to me, what is opening up a guitar, what effect does it have, is it a positive effect, i have a takamine gs30s, what would opening up do to help it.

[OrvilleGibson]

Originally posted by tapeman1 So you're saying it will make a noticable difference in volume?

 

Sure, and it may even be measurable! It won't change a dullard into a cannon, but it will have slightly more volume. One thing in my experience to be careful with is that those slight changes in tone or volume are easy to confuse for the other: slightly more sound output is sometimes translated into more "tone". It's all pretty subtle, and tone is, well, subjective IMHO.

 

what does opening up mean

 

New guitars take some time to settle in to the tone they'll have for the majority of their lifetime. Others here can give you more info on their experiences, and perhaps some have stuck their guitars into isolation boxes and blasted the hell out of them with AC/DC. Haven't tried that. All I'll say is that my guitars typically take about a year to get to that point, and some may get there faster the more they are played. It's a combination of glues and finishes changing, wood cells changing, and stress on the body imparted by the constant tension of the strings. It's like a new house that takes time to settle, although you shouldn't get a lot of creaking and cracking!

[mattitar]

I played a mates neglected laminate Yamaha for 2 weeks solid, and noticed the tone improve- slightly less muddy, a broader, slightly richer tone, louder- and it physically felt more responsive- less stiff.

 

My Dred, (Sitka and blackwood) opened up little if at all over the first 5 years- but a change to mediums and a lotta rehearsals and giggin has seen it develop a lot- a little more volume, but a drier woodier tone and more sustain. A good guitar

 

My Jumbo (Euro/braz) started life as a loud but tonally lifeless thing- 8 months later it is a canon- substantially louder again, and tonally exquitite.

 

My ooo (Adi/coco) came out of the box singing, loud and with an incredibly focused fundamental- though with good overtones as well. Became quite boxy about a month in (a feature which until a few months ago still occasionally apeared, though in ever decreasing periods) Loud to start with, I can't say it's much louder, but the overtone content has grown, as has the bass response, and fatness of trebles. A stunning instrument.

 

00 (eng/EIR) shows no signs yet of opening up (lovely to start with) but it's is almost the most recent addition.

 

I just bought an all mahog guitar- and would be interested to hear what any other all mahog owners have to say about opening up with regards these beasts.

 

I also have a 20 string guit coming- 6 regular- 2 sub basses and 12 symps- made by the same Luthier who made my 000- Glenn Wilson, an Australian Luthier.

A plug for Glenn- a wonderful accomodating luthier to work with- finishes and workmanship equal to any I have seen. Produces truly exceptional instruments by hand- no cnc fadal, etc, etc. (A friend, my brother and Dad now own Wilson's- having heard all the other handmade instruments I own...) He's spent a lot of time in conversation with Fred Carlson over this project, and even gone to the trouble of producing a prototype prior to beginning production on mine... I can't say enough good things. Check him out.

 

http://home.iprimus.com.au/glenlute/index.html

 

There are a few pics of the prototype on his website. If you'd like to see more pics of the proto- I'd be more than happy to email them to you...just drop me a line.

 

Cheers!

 

Matt

[fado]

Some will tell you that this whole "opening up" thing is just vodoo, but I can honestly say that after nine months I could hear a discernable difference in my Bourgeois VOM. The response was much quicker and the sound was fuller. The trebles fattened and the bass went from a thud to a ring. I think it also got louder but not in the same proportion as the change in tone. All the above helpled to make the guitar easier to play.

 

Rob

[guitarcapo]

If you want to hear what "opening up" does...try this:

 

Take your whole hand flat and press lightly on the spot right behing the bridge and while doing this strum the strings with the left hand. Then take hand away and do the same thing. It's that kind of effect.

 

To my ear more bass comes out. The guitar has more volume. and is less "boxy" sounding. Trebels are less tinny and the guitar sounds more like it does when the strings are new.

[miramadar]

This has been discussed at some length recently. Go here:

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=718476

[tapeman1]

Thank you all for the informative responses. I just got my new Breedlove on Friday, and while I love the tone it's lacking volume. I'm hoping that's something it will grow into.

[GiantBunnySuit]

 

Originally posted by guitarcapo If you want to hear what "opening up" does...try this: Take your whole hand flat and press lightly on the spot right behing the bridge and while doing this strum the strings with the left hand. Then take hand away and do the same thing. It's that kind of effect. To my ear more bass comes out. The guitar has more volume. and is less "boxy" sounding. Trebels are less tinny and the guitar sounds more like it does when the strings are new.

 

 

 

that's a neat trick!!

[buddyboy]

Hey fellas, I... I think my '74 Ovation Legend is starting to open up! hu, hu. All my other guitars showed various improvements over a short period of time (weeks of heavy playing). Then, the improvement slowed.

[riffdaddy]

I find that the best way to get a guitar to begin to open up is to strum it loudly. Just lay into the guitar with a heavy pick, strumming slowly across the strings. A broken-in guitar just feels looser and easier to play. Notes respond better and the guitar projects more.

[Prozak]

I'm really starting to think it's in people's head. Like a superstition type thing.

[riffdaddy]

 

Originally posted by Prozak I'm really starting to think it's in people's head. Like a superstition type thing.

 

 

I promise you it isn't. Anything that vibrates will loosen up and (usually) sound better with age. Talk to drummers about their cymbals and they'll tell you the same thing.

[Prozak]

 

Originally posted by riffdaddy I promise you it isn't. Anything that vibrates will loosen up and (usually) sound better with age. Talk to drummers about their cymbals and they'll tell you the same thing.

 

 

I would think drummers would be just as susceptible to the superstition as guitarist. I'm sure the guitar changes some with time, but I seriously doubt it's anything that will make a significant change.

[chipmonk-doug]

 

I'm sure the guitar changes some with time, but I seriously doubt it's anything that will make a significant change.

 

 

It's about a $8000 change in a D-28 for 35 yrs and about a $20000 change for 60 yrs. To me that is significant.

[Andrewrg]

Because the changes are so gradual and happen over a relatively long time scale it can be hard to detect any significant difference.A friend has a Lowden O12 which was new ayear or so back.I hadn`t heard it for about that time but open up it certainly has.It ain`t voodoo.Among others I play a SCGC dread which even during the short time I`ve owned it has improved in tone,volume and playability.

[Scodiddly]

I don't doubt that opening-up happens (I'm 8 months into my new Taylor...), but for somebody playing the same guitar I'd believe that there's an equally big change with their own playing. You play the same instrument all the time, you tend to adjust your playing style and technique to the guitar.

 

This is also the justification for my theory that the best guitar is one you've owned for a few years. If it was a decent choice to begin with, you'll really get close to being the ideal player for that particular guitar over the years.

[guitarcapo]

I build and repair acoustics. If you REALLY want to hear a guitar open up you should hear what it goes through the first few HOURS that it's played. I just put a new top on a Harmony Sovereign Jumbo I bought on Ebay. The previous owner re-glued the bridge with epoxy in the wrong place and there was no way to remove it. The top had several cracks in it and was ladder braced so I decided to re-top it with a Red spruce top that was X- braced.

 

So I put the new top on and I string it up without finish. Now I have this system where I "voice" the top by thinning strategic areas on the top with a handheld random orbital sander. The guitar's voice goes through all kinds of changes. I've learned you have to go slow with this because it's easy to overdo it if you don't take into account the top "opening up" on it's own without help from the sander. I usually play it, do a little sanding, then leave the guitar to "settle" for a day. I then repeat this until the guitar sounds fantastic before finishing. I listen for bass to start showing up. If you overdo it the guitar becomes boomy and unbalanced. You only have one shot at it too because you can't add wood easily after removing it. If you think this is dangerous because the top might fail from the sanding, I've found that the boominess will show up long before the top loses structural integrity.

 

My method basically starts with a guitar that's muted and bright from a slightly thick top and standard bracing. By sanding you get bass volume and a better tonee. It can't add trebels very well. That has to be there from the start, and is probably a function more of the bridge, bridgeplate, and braces. It's relatively easy and guarantees an awesome sounding guitar for all the time and efforts building.

[buddyboy]

 

So I put the new top on and I string it up without finish. Now I have this system where I "voice" the top by thinning strategic areas on the top with a handheld random orbital sander. The guitar's voice goes through all kinds of changes.

 

 

Thanks GC. That's very intersesting to me, but can you elaborate a bit please? Do you sand between the braces with a sander that is small enough to fit inside or is the back off at this point? Do you ever scallop stndard braces after the guitar is assembled?

[buddyboy]

 

So I put the new top on and I string it up without finish. Now I have this system where I "voice" the top by thinning strategic areas on the top with a handheld random orbital sander. The guitar's voice goes through all kinds of changes.

 

 

Thanks GC. That's very intersesting to me, but can you elaborate a bit please? Do you sand between the braces with a sander that is small enough to fit inside or is the back off at this point? Do you ever scallop stndard braces after the guitar is assembled?

[guitarcapo]

 

Thanks GC. That's very intersesting to me, but can you elaborate a bit please? Do you sand between the braces with a sander that is small enough to fit inside or is the back off at this point? Do you ever scallop stndard braces after the guitar is assembled?

 

 

No I don't mess with the braces after the guitar is built. This is a flat sander that goes on the face of the guitar and thins the soundboard gradually. The braces mostly provide structural integrity and are too stiff to get a lot of controlled effect messing with them. Lately I've been partial to tall, thin, non-scalloped braces anyway...since they give a more bell-like trebel and show less problems with long term bellying. I rely on thinning the peripheral top for the bass.

 

Scalloping braces provides bass , and might have it's place in getting more bass out of a small guitar, but you'll get a livelier, more stable top with tall thin braces. A structural engineer wil tell you that a brace twice as tall is 4 times as strong. A brace twice as wide is only twice as strong. So you increase the strength to weight ratio more with tall thin braces.

 

When I DO scallop braces I do it with a chisel or dremel tool after the soundboard is totally assembled. I might tap the top and shape the braces before gluing it on to the rim, but after that I leave them alone. It still doesn't replace my sander method. That method ismore accurate because the soundboard is all strung up under tension and glued on the guitar. All variables (except for the finish) are already accounted for. It ets around surprises in soundboard stiffness and inconsistancies in braces. My wife thinks it's easy to build a guitar because they all sound so good......

[Prozak]

 

Originally posted by chipmonk-doug It's about a $8000 change in a D-28 for 35 yrs and about a $20000 change for 60 yrs. To me that is significant.

 

 

Obviously the topic we are talking about is the change in sound, not the change in value.

[OrvilleGibson]

 

Originally posted by guitarcapo No I don't mess with the braces after the guitar is built. This is a flat sander that goes on the face of the guitar and thins the soundboard gradually. The braces mostly provide structural integrity and are too stiff to get a lot of controlled effect messing with them. Lately I've been partial to tall, thin, non-scalloped braces anyway...since they give a more bell-like trebel and show less problems with long term bellying. I rely on thinning the peripheral top for the bass. Scalloping braces provides bass , and might have it's place in getting more bass out of a small guitar, but you'll get a livelier, more stable top with tall thin braces. A structural engineer wil tell you that a brace twice as tall is 4 times as strong. A brace twice as wide is only twice as strong. So you increase the strength to weight ratio more with tall thin braces. When I DO scallop braces I do it with a chisel or dremel tool after the soundboard is totally assembled. I might tap the top and shape the braces before gluing it on to the rim, but after that I leave them alone. It still doesn't replace my sander method. That method ismore accurate because the soundboard is all strung up under tension and glued on the guitar. All variables (except for the finish) are already accounted for. It ets around surprises in soundboard stiffness and inconsistancies in braces. My wife thinks it's easy to build a guitar because they all sound so good......

 

 

Yep, it's tough to shave those braces through the soundhole, although obviously it's been done. With the trap door tailblock, though, it's a piece of cake - I saw a before and after demonstration done by Steve Klein where he shaved the braces through the trap door. Pretty cool.

 

I'm with you on tall, thin braces, however I tend to do the parabolic arch profile instead of rectangular. I've done tapping all over the tops and braces, and the results have been pretty good, but on my last few I've been bouncing glitter. Results were even better, and I could actually see where I needed to shave. It wasn't until I got the latest "Big Red Book" with Al Carruth's article in it that I got the whole idea on how to "properly" do it. My next acoustic is going to get the whole treatment, and I may even build a special rig to do it.

 

Sanding around the perimeter of the lower bout is a pretty well time-tested method and works great. Just don't go through the purfling lines... DAMHIKT. Another couple tips I picked up were to bevel the inside top and back edges of the tailblock, leaving a gluing surface just slightly wider than the width of the kerfing, and make the sides/ribs stiff with spruce, rosewood, or maple reinforcement.