going to play with a band, help me get started.

[mr2good]

A couple of my buddies and I are getting a warehouse to jam out in. We have never had drums before, just play acoustically in our living room. The only equipment I have is a Larrivee D-05, no pick up installed yet. There will be an acoustic player, an acoustic or electric player, a bassist and a drummer. I think we should all get our own equipment, rather than one huge mixer for all guitars to share. How do you guys feel about that?

 

I have a big discount on Kustom products ( www.kustom.com )

 

Would something like this work for my Vocals and guitar?

 

Kustom KPA 7212

200-Watt Powered Mixer and 2 100-Watt Kustom Speakers

 

If more power is needed could get this:

 

Kustom KPM 8420

 

Dual 200-Watt Assignable Amplifiers (Mains and Monitors), does that mean I could use it as the same one above but with double the power, making it 400 watts? Would I need pickup like this AST/UST/A2 Endpin Pre Amp, for that setup. A dual source so I could mix? I would get more powerfull speakers for this mixer of course.

 

Let me know if I am on the right track with that stuff above. Will it be good sound quality, loud enough to play out with?

 

As for pickups, I am looking into a b-band AST or UST, K&K and putw I hear are good as well. I am also looking into the Schertler BLuestick, I am not impressed with the $200 price tag, but I hear it is amazing. Not sure I can justify the extra $100 when I could spend it on better amps. Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks for the help.

[fingerpicker]

I would paste this thread onto the live sound forum, you will get a bunch of tips. Make sure you add to your post what will be going through the PA. Just vocals? Vocals+guitars? Vocals Bass Guitars? Kick Drum? Also your budget?

 

Personally for a band that Kustom is not going to do it for you. Kustom, Rogue, Nady, Behringer are the "Bottom of the Barell"

 

 

I think we should all get our own equipment, rather than one huge mixer for all guitars to share. How do you guys feel about that?

 

I think if you are going to gig you will want everything going through one mixer.

[54merk]

You need a combination of equpment. The bass player can plug into an amp or into the PA, but I prefer a bass amp. An electric guitarist needs an amp. to get the distortion effects. The acoustic guitar needs a pickup to be plugged into the PA. This is preferable over using a separate acoustic guitar amp. The vocals must go through a PA, no ifs ands or buts, unless there won't be any singing. Drums do not need to be miked for a practice situation, however the vocal mikes will inadvertently pick them up anyway.

[Singin' Dave]

2good,

 

I went from one man acoustic in my living room to full on band with me on acoustic and vox, an electric guitar, bass and drums over the past few years. I spend quite a bit of time in the Live Sound forum so I think I can help you. Bear with me on this long post...

 

First, you need to put some thought into this investment prior to purchasing a unit that will let you down later (i.e. a Kustom, Nady, Behringer or other cheap unit that will a) breakdown and turn into garbage, b) distort heavily and lead to poor sound, c) not be loud enough to hear over a full band or d) all of the above). You've started off very wisely by posting here.

 

You also need to come up with a reasonable budget for a system, that will serve you as long as you guys hope to jam together and then can be sold at a decent resale value should you break up or no longer need the equipment. Expandability is also a consideration, but I'm going to err on ease of use for this post. I recommend you getting all of your guys together and detemining a max. budget for each man. You will need about $1,000 at a bare minimun to get this done, so hopefully each of the 4 of you can save up and pitch in ~$250 - $300 as a MINIMUM!! Add in mics, stands and cables and this budget would go up to about $350-$400 a man. Be smart and save up for this..don;t jump the gun and have regrets it in 5 months (trust me...I've been there and spent a LOT more later making up for my mistakes!!)

 

 

This will give you a budget to get one of two set-ups, both of which are debated at length over in Live Sound, and both of which will serve you in a practice space and minimally in a small live setting of under 100 people shoudld you wish to play out sometime soon.

 

Again, I'm going to assume a very low PA budget of $1,000. This does not include your personal budget to get a pick-up system for your Larry (which I'll leave out of this post as you can do a search and get lots of info there)

 

Set Up #1 - Powered Mixer and Passive Main Speakers

 

You are probably familiar with this "PA on a Stick" set-up which consists of a powered PA "head" with a built in amplifier, a set number of XLR/mic inputs, built-in effects, speaker outs etc, and a pair of passive Main speakers. This set up has distinct advantages in ease of use, set up, transportability etc. but is lacking in power, flexibiliy, expandability and sometimes reliability vs. a system made up of components (separate power amps, rack effects, EQ, speakers etc.)

 

Your best route here is to go used and avoid really cheap crap. You'll need to determine what your going to run through your system. For practice, you will likely not need to run any drums, electric guitar or bass through the unit, so just the acoustic guitar and vocals. However, if you ever play out live, you may indeed want to run at a minimum light bass and some kick drum through it and then you are talking about subs which can translate these low frequencies to an audience. At a minimum though, this would entail getting 15" woofers on your mains for a tiny bit of support, then buy the sub later if you guys start getting some paying gigs.

 

So....with $1,000 I would get:

 

1 Used Peavey XR series powered Mixer:

8 channels of XLR/mic inputs. Minimum of 400W @ 4 ohms per internal amp if possible. the XR 684 and XR696 models are good w/ the XR696 being pretty pricey - about $500-600 used and the XR684 being a bit less. If you dont think you'll need that many channels, you can do very well with an older Peavey mixer like the XR600E or XR600F series which sell used on eBay for about $200-$300. Peavey makes good reliable stuff for reasonable prices especially used.

 

2 Passive Speakers:

2 way 15" speakers w/ a minimum sensitivity of 98db @ 1w/1m. Your speakers wattage should match the powered mixer (do a search for more on this). Sensitivity is key to speakers, as those rated with higher sensitivity are going to be much louder and cleareer than those with lower sensitivity. For example a Kustom speaker being driven by say 150w that has a sensitivity of 91db @ 1w/1m will sound very weak, whiule the same 150 w driving a speaker with 98db @ 1w/1m will sound like it has about 500w going into it. Big deal here.

 

You also want speakers that can double as monitors as you expand, sp wedges that allow for pole mounts are best IMO. If you play live, you need monitors AND Mains ( 4 speakers - 2 amps in your powered mixer), but these you can buy later when you get closer to actually gigging out.

 

My recommendations are to look for 2 used JBL 1500s (go for about $500 on eBay) and take a look at a speaker company called Sonic out of Wisconsin, who make good stuff. I'm not a big fan of Yamaha or Peavey speakers but they're alot better than the Kustom/Nady crap.

 

This basic set up will serve you well as you get started and again, you can resell it later to get a more realistic and robust system if needed.

 

Option #2 - Powered Speakers and Passive Mixer

 

Many people will tell you the smartest thing for a starting band with aspirations to play out is to buy 2 powered speakers and a passive mixing board. This allows for a) expandability - use the speakers a monitors later and b) perfect power matching of amp to speaker for optimum sound and ease of set-up. The down side is they are a) heavier than passive speakers b) more expensive and C) each speaker requires a power source so you need lots of power cables or a MOX backline power cable.

 

Within the budget of $1,000 you are pretty limited here...and may need to increase the budget a bit or buy only one powered speaker for now, then another when you can afford it.

 

Passive Mixer:

Again, go used and steer clear of Behringer, which are notorious for mid gig faliure. Peavey makes a nice series of boards, the RQ series with a range of channels to suit your needs for about $200-$400 depending on # of channels etc.

 

Powered/Active Speakers:

 

I'm not too up on the best ones here within your range as I would usually recommend Yorkville NX series. Fortunately for you, powered speakers have become more affordable in the past few years. Some used models to look for are JBL Eons (which have their detractors as well) and I think Samson may actually make a decent powered speaker now. Again, these run about $400 and up, even used, so one speaker might so the trick for now, then save up for the other.

 

This rig would probably sound better and be more expandable but it's your money and your call.

 

Just don't waste your hard earned cash on a flimsy, unreliable, poor sounding system because you want to jam tomorrow...think long term and big picture with this important purchase.....it affects yours and your audience's enjoyment of your music immensely!

 

Good Luck!!

[mr2good]

Thanks for the reply's guys.

 

I have decided to stay away from Kustom, bashing them is a common theme amongst educated musicians.

 

Would a 400 watt, 7 channel Peavey powered mixer be enough for two acoustic guitars and two vocalists?

[Singin' Dave]

2good,

 

I would think that the Peavey should be fine......much better than what you were looking at. And remember to match it with some sensitive speakers as I recommend above.

 

Which model Peavey are you looking at? Does it have 2 internal amps or just one? If you ever plan to add monitors for playing out, you may want to go with 2 that each have about 400w @4 ohms if possible (tough with you budget though). But if this is 95% for practice/jamming, you shoould be cool with just the one internal amp for quite a while.

[godspeed]

Dude, you need an amp. I'm speaking from my own experieces I've had playing through a PA with no amp, and it sounds like {censored}.

And just think, if you get a cheaper amp that sounds good but isn't too loud, you just run it through the PA and you're instantly melting faces.

In reference to the PA, you should pick up a Tradin' Post in your locality, preferably one for a city/suburban region with more stuff being listed. I've seen churches sell good PA's for dirt cheap in those papers.

[Preacher Will]

54Merk and Singin' Dave gave you some really good, detailed advice. Here's a couple of other things to consider:

 

First some quick nomenclature so we're all on the same track: the gear that the musician uses to generate his/her sound is usually referred to as "backline" and includes things like guitar amps (Fender Twin, Marshall half-stack) and pedals, keyboards and their dedicated amps/speakers (such as a Leslie), etc. The system that is used to provide sound to the crowd and monitor feeds to the band is the PA. The part facing the crowd is called "front of house" (FOH) and the part facing the band is the monitor. Monitors allow you to hear what you are playing/singing on a loud stage. There can be multiple monitor feeds--ideally one for each musician with different balances specified by each player.

 

While the backline can be used to provide FOH, far greater control over the sound heard by the crowd, and by the musicians, is achieved when the backline is fed into the PA. In this arrangement, the guitar amp provides the tone, the PA provides the volume. This is why many bands are going to smaller guitar amps and bigger PA's. By feeding everything into the PA through its own dedicated channel, the soundtech can then blend the various inputs to get the most harmonious overall sound. Acoustic guitars sound best through a PA and are best run straight to the board. An acoustic amp is essentially a small PA in a box, so there is no advantage to having a separate acoustic amp and micing it for the PA.

 

When picking a PA, there are some basics you need to take into consideration before you buy:

 

What kind of music are you playing and what kind of rooms are you playing it in? Rock and roll needs more oomph than jazz hence a bigger PA. A small dinner club where you are background music has very different needs from a dance club.

 

Light background or acoustic "fill" music in a small bar/restaurant can easily be handled by a couple hundred watt powered mixer and a pair of 15" two ways on sticks. Something like the Peavey that Singin' Dave suggested. (I personally like the little Peavey's for this sort of thing. I own two of them.) If you're playing for dances at the Legion Hall you better start thinking about something in the range of at least a thousand watts FOH with subs--otherwise you simply won't have the punch to get them up dancing and you'll be tempted to overdrive your PA with potentially disasterous results.

 

Regarding quality: Others have said it, I'll affirm it, Kustom and Nady are one step up from toys. Behringer has some decent equipment on the market--this does not include their larger mixers, power amps, eq's, or speakers. Better quality products come from names such as Peavey and Yamaha for powered mixers; Peavey, Yamaha, JBL, and Community for speakers; Allen & Heath (Mixwhiz) and Yamaha for mixers; QSC, Crown, and Crest for power amplifiers. Two companies, Carvin and Mackie, seem to have their adherents and detractors. I own a Mackie board, wouldn't buy another one, but many find them to be the right tool at the right price.

[SpruceApple]

You're getting some very good advice from Singin Dave and 54merck...

 

It is always a dilemna when you first venture down this path because you don't have anything to start with, you need to get everything, but have a limited budget (usually). The trick is to get stuff that you are not going to have to replace or outgrow soon but doesn't break the bank and will still sound good.

 

First, explore every possible avenue to find used equipment. This is by far the best way to get the most bang for your buck. Music shops frequently have complete used PA's - one stop shopping at a good value.

 

Second, Singin Dave recommended that you consider Sonic speakers made in Wisconsin. I want to second this recommendation - they sound good and are a very good value. I live in Wisconsin and many bands and bars around here use them for FOH and monitors for these reasons. As Singin Dave said, pay close attention to the "sensitivity" spec - this is huge. Get 15" speakers that have the highest power rating you can afford (this is one way to hedge your bets because you might need more power later on if you start gigging). EV also makes some very good stuff, sometimes more money though, but also maybe more available in the used market.

 

For mixing and power, I recommend that you go with a passive mixer and separate amp(s). The reason - the amps are easily upgraded if/when you need more power but you can still use the same mixer. Look for a used Mackie CFX or V-series mixer, they are usually pretty easy to find and good quality - you won't have to replace/upgrade these soon. I believe that power amps are somewhat commodity type items - Crown, QSC, Carvin are all OK - look for the best value/watt. Buy as many watts as you can initially afford, but don't sweat the size too much because amps are easily upgradeable down the road. Also, consider used - remember that many other people/bands are upgrading too.

 

What I'm trying to say is:

1) get good speakers (put your money in the transducers)

2) get a passive mixer (good item to buy used)

3) get a decent amp(s) to start, then upgrade later if/when you need more power.

 

Best wishes...