using drum loops

[joshcamp]

i am using drum loops in my recordings - don't have access to a drummer or drums.

they sound cool on their own but when put in a mix they sound dull.

what can i do to make drum loops sound more real in a mix?

give them more punch, etc....

[lmiller1220]

Hi Josh-

 

I use drum loops almost exclusively, and they can sound great. There are a lot of factors, so let me ask you a few questions:

 

1- What loops are you using (companies, collections)?

 

2- What are you recording the loops into/ at what resolution (into a DAW? 16 bit? 24 bit?)?

 

3- Are the loops already-processed out of the box (i.e. do they already have reverb and/or compression on them in noticeable amounts)?

 

4- Are you adding any effects/signal processing on your loops?

 

5- Do any of your loops have multi-track formats (where, for example, you can separate the hi-hat track from the snare track, etc.)?

 

EDIT: I should also ask:

- What kind of music are you recording/ what are the other instruments in your mixes besides the drum loops (i.e. lots of heavy guitars and detuned bass stuff or lots of fat synths? Or maybe something totally different?)

 

Gimme some more details and I can at least give you my humble prespective on how I make drum loops stay "present" in the mix. FYI- In most cases, I don't do a ton of processing to them...

 

Thanks!

 

LM

[toddlans]

one thing to consider is that when you're using real drums the drums are made to fit the song as far as accents, fills, drum selection and tuning etc, but with loops the beat is already made before the song so you lose some of that luxury. you could try automating the mix to bring certain hits out for accents and such. EQ will probably be essential unless the loop comes with each drum on its own track so you can mix the drums accordingly to the song. However even EQ won't let you change the levels too much if you just have a stereo mixdown of the drum loop. and also editing the loop to make up new fills etc might be an idea (might sound cool for certain things might sound fake and cheesy for others). maybe consider getting a midi controller/drumpad and getting some individual sample hits. this can take a lot of practice to get them sounding real, but it can be done. another option is to build the whole song around the loops, but thats kind of a bummer to have some of the creative process already done for you leaving you with less options of what you can write. you can make do without real drums, but its worth trying to find a way to record drums even if it takes you a long time to save up the money for mics, you'll be glad in the long run.

[Kiwiburger]

I don't have the patience for working with loops myself. I need variation, otherwise I find I hypnotise myself and go slightly mad. (That might be an effect you want, but generally it's not what I want).

 

The dance guys who are brilliant with loops really mess with them extensively, but I don't have the patience myself. The sort of things you can do:

 

Chop the loops up into individual hits. That allows you to do stutters and fills and play around with midi notes.

 

Play with time stretching - anything to avoid phase-accurate repitition. Intentionly make loops that aren't perfect.

 

Mix and match different loops. Maybe take one for the kick drum, and low pass it. Take another for the hats and high pass it.

 

Automate the mute button. Automate filters. Automate delays and reverbs.

 

There is a lot you can do - just seems like hard work to me. I'd rather hit something with a stick, and get natural dynamics. Or, use one-shot samples and modulate the sampler and use randomising effects (Linplug RMIV is my favorite).

[joshcamp]

thx for the info guys --

 

i use loops for convenience and luxury of having them. i don't have a drummer handy and or a kit.

 

the music i record is rock and mostly just to get my ideas down. that said, i do want it to sound good.

 

i am using a lot of acid loops - probably not the best... but thats what i have, - not sure if they are 16 or 24 bit.

 

i dont want to mess with altering the loops - too time consuming. however, i do mess with using two or more loops -layered, to make a fuller sound. sometimes this seems to work ok.

 

i dont usually add too much processing at all - if i do its low pass, light reverb, and compression.

 

i sometimes add fills and other percussion throughout a song, but usually its one main loop.

 

i would be interested in knowing what you guys do to your loops to make them punchy and strong - whereas mine sound flat and weak.

 

thanks!

[Kiwiburger]

For quickly making drums more punchy, try some saturation and compression. (Some colorful compressors offer both at once).

 

If you can run PC VST effects, some freebies worth trying are: camelphat free, Blockfish, Voxengo Tube Amp, Kjaerus Classic plugins (Limiter & compressor) and zillions of others ...

[joshcamp]

thx kiwiburger, i am using UAD-1 effects - i have LA2A and 1176 se , these are a bit colored and do work ok - maybe im not using them properly....

 

i will try out those freebies.

[Kiwiburger]

I think saturation (distortion) is very useful on drums. In the analog realm, tubes, transformers and tape are great on drums for this reason. If you have clean digital drum loops, try crunching them up.

 

My undestanding is that the real money in a drum sound isn't in the transient attack - it's in the resonance that follows. The transient is the enemy - and distortion is a way of dealing to the enemy.

 

Limiters or compressors, if set incorrectly, can make a drum sound worse. They react to the transient - instantly dropping the level, and if they don't come back up again fast enough, you basically punch a hole in your sound, making it weaker. Saturation just smooths the transient off, allowing higher levels before clipping - which I find is more effective.

 

Compression can be used to shape the sound too - by varying the attack you can make it sound punchier, and by varying the decay you can extend the resonance.

 

Eq can bring out the frequencies you like, and hide the ones you don't.

 

And reverb is a world of possibilities for drum sounds.

[lmiller1220]

I dunno Josh, Kiwiburger-

 

I can see the "sonic merit" in saturation and effective compression (i.e. not squashing the life and attack out of the drums), but I don't have any trouble getting my drum loops to cut through the mix without having to rely too much of that. My stuff ranges from rock to alt-pop/Brit-pop kinda stuff-- can get pretty dense and somewhat heavy, and the drums don't sound flat. The UAD stuff should give you some really nice options if used in moderation and with consideration for how drum sounds "work"; the freeware mentioned is also some good stuff that I use as well.

 

Josh-- when you say you use "acid" loops, can you be more specific? "Acid" or "acidized" just implies that there is additional info in the .wav file to indicate original tempo, beats, etc. What specific drum loop collections do you own? I use stuff by:

 

Beta Monkey (incredible pricing, excellent dry loops)

http://www.betamonkeymusic.com/

 

Drums On Demand (a bit pricier, but slamming loops- some are pretty processed, some not)

http://www.drumsondemand.com/order.html

 

Sony Music (the original "Acid" folks)- I have a couple of diff collections of theirs by diff drummers.

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/loop_libraries/

 

M-Audio

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=prosessions

 

Session Loops

http://www.sessionloops.com/index.html

 

Big Fish Audio

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/detail.html?836

 

And anything else I can get my hands on, of course.

 

Note that some of these folks offer "multi-track" versions of their loops, which means that you get not only a stereo loop of the entire kit (where you can't really alter individual kit elements like snare, hi-hat, etc.), but also individual loop of each part of the kit, such as:

snare track

hi-hat track

toms

overheads

room mic

bass drum

 

Then, you can really go to town and mix the kit more realistically. Pan the tom fills. Different reverb or compression on the snare than on the rest of the kit. No reverb on the bass drum. You get the idea. Mix in the room/overheads to taste. I have just started using the multi-track stuff- it is great!! Check out the interactive flash demo on the Drums on Demand site under their multitrack section- it gives you a little mixer to play with to get a tiny idea of the possibilities:

 

http://www.drumsondemand.com/multitrack.html

 

Most or all of the above sites have demos to listen to and/or download. You may already be familiar- forgive me if so. Anyway,

 

(FYI- I am putting aside the pros and cons of loops versus programming drums to your specific, exact accents, etc.-- that's a whole different discussion, and I definitely agree with a lot of the points made regarding monotony- it's a balancing act, but as a time-saver and a way to get a solid demo down, I can't beat loops for my personal situation).

 

Sorry for the book!!

[joshcamp]

thanks lmiller1220,

 

yeah, i am using Sony's loops - i have a few of theirs.

 

yeah, i have been accentuating the loops on separate tracks - ie, adding fills, extra snaer hits, etc.. but it never seems to sound full or punchy. maybe it's a mix issue...

[lmiller1220]

You bet!

 

Are you able to post something you've recorded? Maybe there's something in the mix that fresh ears (not necessarily mine per se, but just in general) could help identify?

 

Also- can you run down your studio set up?

 

PC, software and/or hardware used to record/mix, monitors?

 

LM

[joshcamp]

well, i have some songs on my myspace page at:

my songs

 

i realize that coming out of a laptop or PC speakers - the sound is going to be a bit anemic... but you may be able to get the idea.

 

my setup - AMD64, athlon 3200+ PC, Lynx L22 audio card, safesound P1 preamp (trying to sell), studio projects vtb-1, studio projects C1 mic, sm57, sonar 4, wavelab 4, AKG headphone monitors, edirol studio monitors (i know these suck)...

 

thats about it.

[lmiller1220]

Well, since I am a 9 to 5-er (voluntarily oppressed by THE MAN, I guess), you are right-- can't crank it up to get a great idea of the sounds, but first impressions are:

 

- For the style of music, I'm not necessarily thinking the drums sound too bad overall, but I don't know what you are aiming for.

 

- Some stuff sounds like it is a bit overprocessed (perhaps too much slap delay/verb/compression), but that may have been the effect/vibe you were going for?

 

- Some of it sounds like the actual loops are just not "bad ass" enough in terms of the sound and power of the drums recorded, etc. That could be part of it, but I will suspend judgment until I can crank it up a bit and really hear things. If you haven't already, check out some of the demos on the sites I listed.

 

- Not familiar with the Edirol monitors, but overall, the better your monitors (not to mention the acoustic listening space and position), the better your mixes to a certain degree, as you probably know.

 

- One idea (which you've probably already tried)- compare your mixes/drum sounds to the CDs you think are closest to the sound and energy you want. Maybe you can figure out what is missing on a general level and re-tool a bit. The great part about loops is that if you get some new loops you like, you can just slap them into your tune/ mute the old ones and re-mix!

 

P.S. I like the tunes- interesting sounds, some cool melodies and changes and different sounding vox processing. What are your influences?