Pickups: "Hot" vs Ohms

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by eeka-chu Well yeah, exactly like I was saying, it's only really part of it. It can be quite a remarkably small part as well when you look at some of the outputs and coil resistances carefully, with pickups having 1/4 to 1/2 the resistance of others producing the same level of output. Magnets are in a kind of world of their own. People don't seem to mind the learning curve for understanding what electrons are and that they actually goes from negative to positive, but when it starts getting to more complicate magnetic behavior everything starts getting blurred. I was looking at applying for a patent on a magnetic nozzle that would focus the plasma from a plasma cutting torch (the kind used by metal fabrication shops to slice metal up) into a finer beam. Which'd help plasma CNC tables compete with lasers. The plasma is electrically charged and so it spirals along magnetic flux lines. Since you can redirect flux lines you could also redirect the plasma without ever touching it, precisely what happens in fusion reactors. Which is important because the plasma is very hot, so it ruins the cutting torch electrodes quite quickly. You end up with a cut tolerance that changes while it's cutting. Problem was, the flux lines eventually need to come back round to the other end of the nozzle to complete the north to south circuit. If the plasma hasn't detatched it's self by then the cut line will just blur out again as the flux turns around on it's self half way through the metal. So I emailed a whole load of labs involved with fusion work. The ETDA fusion reactor here in the UK, the Princeton fusion lab and other places. I wanted to find out if there was a way I could force the plasma to detatch from the flux just as it reached it's focal point. The staff where really helpful, less so at Princeton. Princeton was interested in the idea because they were trying to do the same thing but with a nozzle on the back of a fusion engine that focused the exhaust. Having the exhaust blurring out as the flux came back toward the nozzle would reduce efficiency and thrust. But even still, all of these guys worked at extremely advanced, expensive facilities and had a hard time explaining precisely what was happening with their own equipment. Some used magnetic flux to capture the plasma, another lab used it to repel the plasma. I guess the point I'm trying to make with this is that most people don't want the bother of trying to work out the magnetics of pickups. I've spoken and listened to a whole load of people skilled in electronics and only a very small percentage of them are totally happy with magnetics. Most of that small percentage are people who are into radio or things like Tesla coils. Most people just look for simple numbers like actual output or DC resistance and seem happy with that. Far from perfect but if they don't have the patience for reading magnetic stuff then it's 100% effective for them personally.

Although I admire your acumen in magnetics, the basic problem here is one of electronics. A detailed a priori understanding of the contribution of all components is not central to my question (but it is interesting ).

Pickup output is a measurable electrical signal.
The strength of that signal (under standardized conditions) should not be difficult for manufacturers to document.

Having such information would be very useful for guitarists, luthiers and techs who want more objective info regarding the bewildering availablity (and dubious claims) of pickups proffered in today's market.
x

[eeka-chu]

Originally posted by jerry_picker Although I admire your acumen in magnetics, the basic problem here is one of electronics. A detailed a priori understanding of the contribution of all components is not central to my question (but it is interesting ). Pickup output is a measurable electrical signal. The strength of that signal (under standardized conditions) should not be difficult for manufacturers to document. Having such information would be very useful for guitarists, luthiers and techs who want more objective on the bewildering availablity (and dubious claims) of pickups proffered in today's market. x

In a word... yes.

If you can set up injection moulding runs and offshore factories in China to wind up coils you should be able to take five seconds to connect a multimeter to the finished result.

Now the question becomes, why don't they?

Lazyness is one answer.

More likely it's that someone who buys the wrong pickup will need another. And hey... guess what! They have a whole load more for you!

You want to give the customers enough information for them to think the pickup is right for them or sounds like a good idea but not so much they can be totally sure.

No doubt working on the idea that once they've bought one pickup from you, provided it's of reasonable quality it's self, it's more likely they'll come back to you to try another of your's before they switch to another company all together.

QVC has all this stuff down to an art form.

BUY! BUY! BUY!

BUY! BUY! BUY!

[misterhinkydink]

You don't need to know the magnetic properties of pickups to characterize them. If you get hung up on stuff like this you would never get it done. All that's required is a standard test set that simulates, either electrically or mechanically, the action of a string at standard distance or distances at a few standard frequencies and measuring the output voltage. It would need to be simple and reproducible so even the smaller pickup manufacturers could afford it.

Originally posted by eeka-chu Well yeah, exactly like I was saying, it's only really part of it. It can be quite a remarkably small part as well when you look at some of the outputs and coil resistances carefully, with pickups having 1/4 to 1/2 the resistance of others producing the same level of output. Magnets are in a kind of world of their own. People don't seem to mind the learning curve for understanding what electrons are and that they actually goes from negative to positive, but when it starts getting to more complicate magnetic behavior everything starts getting blurred. I was looking at applying for a patent on a magnetic nozzle that would focus the plasma from a plasma cutting torch (the kind used by metal fabrication shops to slice metal up) into a finer beam. Which'd help plasma CNC tables compete with lasers. The plasma is electrically charged and so it spirals along magnetic flux lines. Since you can redirect flux lines you could also redirect the plasma without ever touching it, precisely what happens in fusion reactors. Which is important because the plasma is very hot, so it ruins the cutting torch electrodes quite quickly. You end up with a cut tolerance that changes while it's cutting. Problem was, the flux lines eventually need to come back round to the other end of the nozzle to complete the north to south circuit. If the plasma hasn't detatched it's self by then the cut line will just blur out again as the flux turns around on it's self half way through the metal. So I emailed a whole load of labs involved with fusion work. The ETDA fusion reactor here in the UK, the Princeton fusion lab and other places. I wanted to find out if there was a way I could force the plasma to detatch from the flux just as it reached it's focal point. The staff were really helpful, less so at Princeton. Princeton was interested in the idea because they were trying to do the same thing but with a nozzle on the back of a fusion engine that focused the exhaust. Having the exhaust blurring out as the flux came back toward the nozzle would reduce efficiency and thrust. But even still, all of these guys worked at extremely advanced, expensive facilities and had a hard time explaining precisely what was happening with their own equipment. Some used magnetic flux to capture the plasma, another lab used it to repel the plasma. I guess the point I'm trying to make with this is that most people don't want the bother of trying to work out the magnetics of pickups. I've spoken and listened to a whole load of people skilled in electronics and only a very small percentage of them are totally happy with magnetics. Most of that small percentage are people who are into radio or things like Tesla coils. Most people just look for simple numbers like actual output or DC resistance and seem happy with that. Far from perfect but if they don't have the patience for reading magnetic stuff then it's 100% effective for them personally.

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by misterhinkydink You don't need to know the magnetic properties of pickups to characterize them. If you get hung up on stuff like this you would never get it done. All that's required is a standard test set that simulates, either electrically or mechanically, the action of a string at standard distance or distances at a few standard frequencies and measuring the output voltage. It would need to be simple and reproducible so even the smaller pickup manufacturers could afford it.

As above:

Originally posted by jerry_picker ...the basic problem here is one of electronics. Pickup output is a measurable electrical signal. The strength of that signal (under standardized conditions) should not be difficult for manufacturers to document.

[eeka-chu]

I was pressed for time with my replies so I based them on the question in the title and first post rather than whether or not the manufacturers could give better descritions.

Originally posted by misterhinkydink You don't need to know the magnetic properties of pickups to characterize them. [snip]

Originally posted by eeka-chu In a word... yes. [snip] someone who buys the wrong pickup will need another. And hey... guess what! They have a whole load more for you!

If you want to think about better descriptions the manufacturers should just blast the finished pickups with a FFT analyser to get a sweep of the output against frequency. Then graph all the results into a simple output over frequency picture.

I expect at least a substantial percentage of people buy a certain pickup because -insert name- uses one, or says they use one to get "That {censored} hot tone!". People like DiMarzio deal with big companies like Ibanez as well, who'll call up DiMarzio and want hundreds or, more likely, thousands of units per order for a whatever anniversary guitar.