Members circuitbreaker Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Working with a limited budget and after reading a number of posts here, I've kind of decided to go with a Behringer PMX2000 powered mixer for myself and a jazz vocalist. It's mainly guitar and vocals but we sometimes use cd tracks (with bass, drums, and piano) to back us up. The material is jazz standards. I have (at least) 2 questions: First, what are the best speakers to go with this 250 watt mixer? Need something warm, not overpowering, for jazz. Something in the $200 - $300 range per speaker. 2nd question (concern): I worry about the mixer getting damaged in shipping from Musicians Friend, and wonder if any of you guys know an alternative vendor with great customer support, which could supply a PMX2000. Also, if any of you feel that there are better mixers for our budget and what we are doing, please let me know. I'm just beginning to learn about this stuff. Thanks - cb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 I bought a PMX 2000 myself a few weeks ago, and love it. It's being used for vocals only in our case, since that's the only thing we needed to be louder, to keep up with the acoustic drums, amplified, guitar, bass and keyboards. We play blues and blues rock. I bought it from the local Guitar Center ($299.95), along with a pair of 25' Speakon-to-1/4" connector speaker cables. The PMX 2000 amp outputs have Speakon connectors, so plan on slending another $50-$60 for the cables. The speakers are up to you - Yamaha and JBL make a good product, but there are others too. Consider what you're planning to run through the PMX 2000, signalwise, and go from there. I'm using some upscale JBLs becvause they're very efficient (loud), clean (low distortion), and portable (they won't break my back, and they fit in my Cherokee). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 15, 2003 Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 Circuitbreaker, check out www.fullcompass.com for a price quote on that mixer. They have great customer service and I've found their prices to be better than MF. Otherwise, do any of your local stores carry them? I bet you could get a price match, and you wouldn't have to worry about shipping issues, either! That cash won't get you any great speakers, but try to find some used Yorkvilles or maybe JBL MPro... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted July 15, 2003 Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 I'm assuming you "decided" to get this mixer because it's the cheapest thing out there. There really isn't any other reason. Keep in mind each amp is 250W is at 4 ohms and 180W at 8 ohms. IMO, this thing is strictly a low powered practice mixer/amp. If you even hope to get reasonable performance DO NOT SKIMP ON SPEAKERS. You need high efficiency in the speaker to make up for the low power of the amplifier. Maybe a pair of NX20's. They are $370 each including shipping from Audio East, but are 101 dB at 1 meter. They are small, lightweight and can be used as monitors if you expand your PA in the future. Cheaper - The Cerwin Vega V-122 . Cast frame, 102 dB efficiency. Also 60 horizontal coverage will "throw" farther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members circuitbreaker Posted July 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 Thanks for all the comments - very helpful. ragamuffin - thanks for the tip on fullcompass.com - I will check them out. abzurd - I will look into the Yorkvilles and research the efficiency ratings on any other speakers I look at (JBL?). Like I say, I am just learning about this stuff. This is definitely for a low-volume gig - Jazz standards with a duo - not a rock gig, so I assumed the lower power mixer would be okay for our purposes. I know that there is a Yamaha EM660 for a little more with 600 watts, but that just seemed to be overkill for what we need. If you have suggestions or recommendations on a PA which might work better for us than the PMX2000, let me know. I don't have much PA experience so I can't say for sure - Thanks for your comments - cb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members circuitbreaker Posted July 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 Soundman - Which model Peavey would you recommend for a low-volume jazz duo PA? Thanks - CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted July 15, 2003 Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 Keep in mind that power is not just used for volume. It also gives you headroom which helps with transient response, definition and clarity in your sound. The 600 watt mixers are 300 wpc at 4 ohms, not a lot more power than the Behringer has but the Peavey, as demonstrated by Soundman, has much better specs and will undoubtedly serve you better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members circuitbreaker Posted July 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 Thanks for the info J - excellent point. - I'll check out the prices on the XR600F. Thanks for all the comments - cb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted July 16, 2003 Members Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by SoundMan I was just looking over the Behringer's specs, and it seems pretty noisy to me. Here are some comparison's to our (PV) mixers. Output noise Behringer Peavey all contols full down: -76dB -98dBu Main 0dB, Channel down: -72dB -89dBu Main 0dB, Channel 0dB -71dB -81dBu You can ignore that 0.001% distortion spec, it's bogus. I don't even have to measure one to tell you that. Same with the signal to noise spec, how can it be 110 dB with a -71dBu noise floor??? Does anyone think 6kHz is a good frequency for a high eq control? Their power amp output rating is speced at 1%, ours is speced at 0.01%. No FLS. I'm gonna have to get one of these and take some real measurements. I'm sure that would be fun. SoundMan Hi SOUNDMAN, Thanks for the info... I assume you work for Peavey, or a dealer that doesn't sell Behringer gear, since you refer to the PV mixers as "our" PV mixers. Regarding the noise specs of the PMX 2000, the spec says that it's measured with the preamp gain controls at the half way point, with no EQ. Since the halfway point on the gain controls is not "full down" as you stated, I think your comparison is inaccurate. Maybe this answers your question about s/n compared to noise floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 16, 2003 Members Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by circuitbreaker Thanks for the info J - excellent point. - I'll check out the prices on the XR600F. Thanks for all the comments - cb I'll second the XR600F. I've used one a bunch of times and have found it to be a really nice little mixer. They can be found used for about $300. I saw one in a local music-go-round for $279 used. It had a big scratch on the front panel, but other than that it seemed in good shape. It sold right away of course. If you're not put off by eBay, you could check over there. An XR600F pops up fairly regularly on the 'Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted July 16, 2003 Members Share Posted July 16, 2003 It seems as you need a lot more power in the US, compared to here in Norway!!?? I've gigged for several years now. The first PA I owned was a 2x265 watts Spirit PowerStation with 2 Yorkwille speakers. I've never run out of watts, in fact I rarely had the poweramp turned up more than 12 o'clock. I play mostly small bars, but I've played for some hundreds persons. Never had problems with to little power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted July 16, 2003 Members Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Bajazz It seems as you need a lot more power in the US, compared to here in Norway!!?? I've gigged for several years now. The first PA I owned was a 2x265 watts Spirit PowerStation with 2 Yorkwille speakers. I've never run out of watts, in fact I rarely had the poweramp turned up more than 12 o'clock. I play mostly small bars, but I've played for some hundreds persons. Never had problems with to little power. Hi Bajazz, I'm with you... I'm not concerned about having enough power with this little PMX 2000... it's plenty loud enough for what I bought it for. Plenty clean enough too. The built-in digital effects are very good too IMHO. All this for $300, new. Don't get me wrong; I love my U.S. made Fenders and Gibsons, and other U.S. built gear. Hell, I even own a Peavey amp or two (along with several Fenders, and a U.K. built Marshall). But ALL U.S. manufacturers (including Peavey) are up against new and stiff offshore competition these days. As a consumer living in the U.S. during these financially depressed times, I have to maximize my dollars. I looked at Mackie, Yamaha, Peavey, Carvin, Fender and Behringer powered mixers, and I wound up buying the product that gave me the best bang for the buck. So far, I've not been dissappointed. If Peavey or any other U.S. or Japanese manufacturer that I mentioned had a similar product for the same price, I would have probably bought it instead. But they didn't, so I didn't. I'm certain that I'm not alone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members circuitbreaker Posted July 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, up until midnight last night I was leaning toward the Peavey XR600f.... and still might go with that one, but..... after doing some more research (- still learning! - ) I discovered that Yorkville has a few smaller Powered mixers, and one that I'm interested in is the AP312, which has similar specs but less power than the AP812 and 818. Less power but still optimized for a full 160 watts. I figure running that with a pair of NX12's might be a nice fit. I basically just need a PA to mix the vocals and backing tracks. What do you guys think about this or is there another Yorkie you like better (MP10DS? or MP8DX?) ?? Any comments or flames welcome - Thanks cb (wearing asbestos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted July 18, 2003 Members Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by circuitbreaker Well, up until midnight last night I was leaning toward the Peavey XR600f.... and still might go with that one, but..... after doing some more research (- still learning! - ) I discovered that Yorkville has a few smaller Powered mixers, and one that I'm interested in is the AP312, which has similar specs but less power than the AP812 and 818. Less power but still optimized for a full 160 watts. I figure running that with a pair of NX12's might be a nice fit. I basically just need a PA to mix the vocals and backing tracks. What do you guys think about this or is there another Yorkie you like better (MP10DS? or MP8DX?) ?? Any comments or flames welcome - Thanks cb (wearing asbestos) Hey Circuitbreaker - this Yorkville system you're looking at looks like a good choice too IMHO! It's good to see another "real" person out here, looking for what fits their needs without any particular axe to grind (ahem... our friend and Peavey mixer designer Soundman). I'm not that familiar with Yorkville powered mixers, but I am familiar with their studio monitors, which are actually quite good. Seems to me they are built in Canada... not sure... but who cares? My Behringer was built in China, but so was my Sony DVD player. The DVD player (and Behringer PMX 2000) had the features I wanted at a price I could afford. The point of this is this : if the Yorkville (or Behringer, or Yamaha, or Mackie, or Peavey, or Carvin, or...) has the features your looking for at a price you're comfortable with, and the dealer or mail order company you're dealing with is one that you trust, go with whatever tickles your fancy. Oh, and to Soundman - I've got two pieces of advice for you; get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat, and you'd better get busy designing some competitive products at competitive prices or you'll wind up a bitter old house painter... the other companies making powered mixers in China, Canada, Korea, Japan, Europe and lots of other countries outside of our neck of the woods aren't going away - they're only going to get better, stronger and tougher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crowekd Posted July 18, 2003 Members Share Posted July 18, 2003 Kid Flash SoundMan has always been scrupulous in identifying his association with Peavey so that any possible bias is made clear. Others e.g. SugarFried with Shure and dearlers representing certain lines do the same. Keep in mind he is a mixer engineer and his points about differences in the quality of the specifications should be carefully considered. I trust his comments. I have no particular axe to grind with Behringer but there are a few issues that come up on this board.1) They are perceived to copy other manufacturers designs avoiding R&D costs and thus can sell at a lower price. As a consumer, you may not find this compelling but many insiders consider it bad corporate behaviour. In reality as competitive margins become thinner it will be harder for others to produce new (and perhaps inexpensive) innovations.2) If the gear works, fine, but if it breaks, it is apparently quite difficult to get adequate repair support. Some here consider it disposable at the price. If you don't mind the risk...3) Their marketing is better than the engineering. Specs are stated in such a way as to maximize their attractiveness. Having said that, they certainly have found a niche market. My keyboard player has one of their baby mixers and it works great for what it is. Keep in mind that this is their first powered mixer offering. On the plus, a number of people on this board have one and seem satisfied. I personally own both a Yorkville MP8DX and a Peavey XR600F. I like them both and they are of similar quality in my opinion. In general, I prefer Yorkville gear but this is primarily because I live in Canada and the combination of a weak dollar, tariffs, and transportation costs make Yorkville cheaper. I would assume the opposite is true south of the border. I have no affiliation, just another weekend warrior. If your value definition is based on $/watt or $/channel or $/"some other feature" then go for the Behringer. There are other specifications that affect the minimal quality of the sound produced and SoundMan was only pointing these out. Circuitbreaker, Good luck with you decision. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted July 19, 2003 Members Share Posted July 19, 2003 Originally posted by SoundMan "the other companies making powered mixers in China, Canada, Korea, Japan, Europe and lots of other countries outside of our neck of the woods aren't going away - they're only going to get better, stronger and tougher." Yes, we've taught them well. SoundMan How true. But don't forget that we taught the Japanese how to build cars too... Remember the way Honda, Toyota and Datsun (Nissan) started kicking Detroit's butt in the early 70's? This was because Detroit was building cars that many U.S. customers felt didn't compete with the features and price points of the new imports. Unfortunately for the Detroit auto makers, they took too long to accept that fact and they lost a huge amount of market share, which they're still struggling to recover. My wife and I have been driving a Jeep Cherokee for many years, but we also bought a new Honda Accord last year because it had the features that we wanted at a price we were comfortable with. We had planned on buying another Cherokee, but the Honda has more leg room and gets better mileage! Just blowing off Behringer, Yorkville and other imports as inferior products with poor support won't make them go away or continue to grow. I wonder what they're showing in Nashville this weekend, and I wonder who else might have joined the competition?... As a side note; I'm sure you've heard that Mackie has moved a portion of their mixer manufacturing to a new factory in China... smells like the competition just got tougher... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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