Members Renoplayer Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Hi guys, I am in need of some assistance from you guys (the players), I have been playing guitar and singing for quite a while yet I have never bought a PA. Well I am in need of one now and am simply debating whether to go with a lunchbox unit, or a separate mixer, amp, and speaker system. I like the firewire capability of the newer mixers, preferrably Mackie's ONYX series. firewire is a definate plus for recording live performances. I will generally be playing for 20 through 90 people, I also will spend the extra money (around $2,000 - 3,000)for a quality system that hopefully has firewire capability unless I can be convinced otherwise) will studio mixers survive on the road? will sound quality be sacrificed by using a mixer as a PA? (instead of a lunch box unit?) Will a cheap (but feature rich) mixer sacrifice sound quality through cheap pre-amps? What kind of advanced circuitry might a lunch box PA contain that a mixer setup might not have? I have been looking at both the Mackie ONYX and also the Alesis firewire mixers, aswell as the Alesis gigamix. Does Alesis have quality pre-amps and such? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 In the price point you're at, preamps are not a factor at all, most are pretty much the same as every other preamp. This is not to say they're bad, just that they're the same. The most typical trade-off for price is reduced reliability, as even dirt-cheap mixers these days seem to be chock-full of bells 'n whistles. The advantage of a powered mixer is if you don't need a lot of inputs or power, and have no plans to expand the rig beyond that powered mixer's capabilities. Once you need to expand, it's probably time to just get separate components. A failure during a gig can be a real problem, since you can't merely patch around the failed component. IMO better performance with similar convenience can be had with a passive mixer and powered speakers....the speakers are often bi-amped, and will usually have perfectly matched power. About the only downside is the need for the extra cables to power them. They will expand with you...you can add peripheral devices to the mixer, the speakers can be used as monitors in a bigger system, and if you replace them, you've got the right power again instead of having to replace the powered mixer. A good example would be the Peavey FX series mixers, which offer USB recording, DSP and effects more extensive than I can mention here, at a reasonable price. Peavey reliability is very good, so it should hold up for gigging. I would not recommend a studio mixer for the road...the features aren't set up for live use, and they unit may or may not be rugged enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Powered mixers are pretty limiting and are likely to be outgrown in short order, thus necessitating a loss on resale and more money spent later. Thus, A budget of $2,000 - $3,000 now for separate compenents or passive mixer/powered speakers will likely save you money in the long run. To answer some of your questions: will studio mixers survive on the road? YES! Get a decent case for a decent mixer and you should be fine will sound quality be sacrificed by using a mixer as a PA? On average with a decent sound opreator, you will get better sound and much more scalability and flexibility using a passive mixer w/ well matched separate components or powered speakers than you will with "lunchbox" powered mixers Will a cheap (but feature rich) mixer sacrifice sound quality through cheap pre-amps? Addressed by Craigv above, but the differences will be too subtle for you to notice What kind of advanced circuitry might a lunch box PA contain that a mixer setup might not have? It depends on the mixer, but none really. Most "lunchbox" mixers only boast internal power above their passive counterparts (assuming the passive mixer has internal FX and some light EQ). Indeed, most passive mixers have many more features than powered mixers, including but not limited to more channels/XLR inputs, more routing options (additional sends and patching capabilities), direct outs for recording and, as you mentioned above, in some cases USB capability, which is rare in a powered mixer. I too like the convenience, ease of use and sound quality of powered speakers with a passive mixer. The recommendation of the Peavey FX series is a solid one - good company with reliable products. A step up from the FX series IMO would be the Allen & Heath MixWiz 16:3, a great mixer for the $$ (do a search here for more). Pair either of these boards with a couple powered speakers (for the small gigs you mention I would look at the Yorkville nx55p but there a number of others that would fit the bill - again do a search on "powered speaker recommendation" or equiv.). These items alone will push your budget, and that does not include monitors, monitor power, graphic EQ for monitors, additional processing, stands, mics, etc. Buy these in pieces and be happy for a while instead of getting a powered mixer and then hacing to sell/buy as you go. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 Powered mixers are pretty limiting and are likely to be outgrown in short order, thus necessitating a loss on resale and more money spent later. Thus, A budget of $2,000 - $3,000 now for separate compenents or passive mixer/powered speakers will likely save you money in the long run. To answer some of your questions:YES! Get a decent case for a decent mixer and you should be fineOn average with a decent sound opreator, you will get better sound and much more scalability and flexibility using a passive mixer w/ well matched separate components or powered speakers than you will with "lunchbox" powered mixersAddressed by Craigv above, but the differences will be too subtle for you to noticeIt depends on the mixer, but none really. Most "lunchbox" mixers only boast internal power above their passive counterparts (assuming the passive mixer has internal FX and some light EQ). Indeed, most passive mixers have many more features than powered mixers, including but not limited to more channels/XLR inputs, more routing options (additional sends and patching capabilities), direct outs for recording and, as you mentioned above, in some cases USB capability, which is rare in a powered mixer.I too like the convenience, ease of use and sound quality of powered speakers with a passive mixer. The recommendation of the Peavey FX series is a solid one - good company with reliable products. A step up from the FX series IMO would be the Allen & Heath MixWiz 16:3, a great mixer for the $$ (do a search here for more). Pair either of these boards with a couple powered speakers (for the small gigs you mention I would look at the Yorkville nx55p but there a number of others that would fit the bill - again do a search on "powered speaker recommendation" or equiv.). These items alone will push your budget, and that does not include monitors, monitor power, graphic EQ for monitors, additional processing, stands, mics, etc. Buy these in pieces and be happy for a while instead of getting a powered mixer and then hacing to sell/buy as you go.Good Luck! Couple of thoughts: 1. Studio gear with a road case may still not survive well on the road. Some stuff doesn't like smoke and spills. All depends, but I'd not take the chance if I have the choice....if it's a question of having only studio gear or nothing, then you takes your chances.... 2. Actually, when you think about it, some mixers do offer more features. The Peavey XR's have varying added features like DDT, FLS, graphic EQ, etc that may not be present on passive mixers. So again, "it all depends". 3. That leads me to the comparison of the A&H Mixwiz with the Peavey FX. I'm not sure it's a definite step up as much as a step over, since the Peavey trades price and features for the overall quality and reputation the A&H enjoys. They really are different mixers with more features in contrast than in common, it seems. I would not hesitate to recommend either, but for different needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Excellent points Craig! I forgot about FLS and DDT which are really nice features in those XR mixers. Not a common feature from other mfrs. And I guess there is a certain amount of ingherent fragility to a "studio" mixer not found in some "box" mixers, given sliders and ribbon cables etc. But I would bet that either of the mixers we are talking about is pretty rugged if cased when not in use. To the OP, if it comes down to looking at these two mixers (Peavey FX 16 or 24 vs. A&H Mixwiz), there was a rash of threads about their respective pros and cons recently - again, search is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 I think powered mixers get a bad rap around here, probably because they just don't seem like a "real pa" to guys with more than a passing interest in sound. The reality is that many bands playing in small clubs only run vocals and perhaps a little kick drum through the pa, and a lot of powered mixers will handle that duty just fine. With the trend in recent years to include a second amp and eq in the same unit, it's really a very convenient "pa in a box". My powered mixer has very flexible routing, so even if I upgraded to a component system, my powered mixer could be brought along as a spare mixer AND amp if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarharv52 Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 I am a fan of powered mixers and have used them a lot.Next go around I think I will try powered speakers instead.Correct power to the speakers and bi-amped ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 There is an intermediate step from lunch box style powered mixers and seperate component systems. There are several desk style powered mixers that have a lot more features than the lunch box configurations and are much easier to use with full faders, a normal board layout, and usually a better patching section to add extras if desired. Yamaha EMX5000-16 & 20 & it's newer version (EMX5016?)A&H PA16CP & PA20CPYorkville PowerMax series (BIG power for a powered mixer!)Peavey made a couple versions too but I think they are out of production. One effectively had a CS800 power amp in it.Even Carvin has one with THREE power amps in it. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Even Carvin has one with THREE power amps in it.Boomerweps Carvin's C1644P has FOUR power amps in it. I like it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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