Steps in a Sound Check

[Dubravac]

Hey everyone ... firstly let me thank the people that helped me out in my x-over thread ... great info and i appreciate your help. I'm really trying to educate myself in sound and doing sound for a band i play in. I'm getting bored of smoking outside (since it's winter here) while another guy does our sound haha. Anyway, i would love to get info on your step process in doing a complete sound check. What do you do first, what next, what last ... do you EQ monitors first, ring out the system, gain the amplifiers ... ?

 

My second question is, and in reading and seeing other bands, i get such mixed opinions on this issue ... when using your amplifiers .. do you turn each channel dial all the way up or not ?? I found some info on gain staging which says you should never crank your amplifiers up all the way .. rather your should set the gains properly on the amps ....

 

Again i thank you for your help.

[Dogoth]

 

My second question is, and in reading and seeing other bands, i get such mixed opinions on this issue ... when using your amplifiers .. do you turn each channel dial all the way up or not ?? I found some info on gain staging which says you should never crank your amplifiers up all the way .. rather your should set the gains properly on the amps .... Again i thank you for your help.

 

 

The short answer is: "It depends on the amps" I know it's a long thread but this should help answers your question amp watts vs gain

[Shaster]

How in the dark are you? Good advice above if you already know what you're doing but if you need the basics I'd start by NOT standing outside at soundcheck and closely (with a note pad....) observing the various soundtechs that mix you.

 

Anyway it depends on where you are starting from. Eg. do you know how to ring out monitors... if not you've got to learn that first before you start worrying about when to do it.

 

Maybe provide a bit more info/detail.

[Dubravac]

I would say i have just over a beginner level in doing sound.

 

I would love to get more info on how to do Gain Staging properly so i'm not clipping my amps. Also how to set trim levels for each input channel so i'm not clipping at the channel.

[Shaster]

There is good basic info on the Yorkville site, also the Yamaha Sound book (for sale just about everywhere).

 

I would find a tech whose mix you admire and see if he/she will do a hands on seminar (for a price of course). There could be a few that are willing to do that - assuming they won't be training themselves out of a job.

 

There's also lots of information on this site and others.

 

And as I mentioned before, observe. I sometimes tell the story of a guitar player turned light tech who worked with a very good sound tech. After a year working with and observing him, he was able to strike out on his own, as a sought after soundman.

[6Imzadi]

 

There could be a few that are willing to do that - assuming they won't be training themselves out of a job.

 

 

I find that when I train someone, they try and try. But, never are able to quite "get it". Must be that I left out one critical piece of information. Nothing too drastic, just that I can't give 25 years of experience to someone without the "experience" needed to gain that knowledge.

[Dogoth]

 

I find that when I train someone, they try and try. But, never are able to quite "get it". Must be that I left out one critical piece of information. Nothing too drastic, just that I can't give 25 years of experience to someone without the "experience" needed to gain that knowledge.

 

 

A lot of it (almost ALL of it) has to do with the students desire to learn. I get tasked from time to time to "train" some of our A/V people. They are not interested in learning so it usualy results in nothing. There is one exception. A supervisor who is the definition of "the peter principle". The poor guy doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together. In this case, all of the desire in the world wouldn't help.

 

I will agree that nothing beats experiance. What one learns from that experiance matters as well. There are a million small things like orienting the XLR so that the release button doesn't get depressed when the mic is slid out of the clip (Ever have the cable fall out of the lead vocalist's mic? - mics with switches are all set up this way). A million small things :>)

[Dubravac]

I just want the basic steps you do in a sound check ... ie ..

 

1. Ring out the monitors

2. Setting gains so there's no clipping for the power amps, mixer, channels, trims etc ..

3. EQing the FOH

 

Something to this effect ... i will then research and read up on each step myself or ask here for some help.

 

Thanks again

[Dogoth]

 

I just want the basic steps you do in a sound check ... ie .. 1. Ring out the monitors 2. Setting gains so there's no clipping for the power amps, mixer, channels, trims etc .. 3. EQing the FOH Something to this effect ... i will then research and read up on each step myself or ask here for some help. Thanks again

 

 

Sorry I went OT. See you DO have the desire to learn, so you will make the most of your experiance. We'll do our best to answer your questions.

 

1. Ring out the monitors:

 

Start with the mic that is most probably going to need the most gain (usualy the lead vocal mic, but an acoustic instrument mic (acc guitar, mando, violin etc...) can also need a lot of gain. Slowly bring up the mic until it starts to feed back, back off the level a couple of db, walk over to the mic and speak, sing, or cup your hand over the ball (to reflect the monitor sound back into the address side of the mic). Listen for what frequencies are trying to feed back and dip them out using an EQ (only take out as much as is needed to stop the feedback and no more or you are doing unnecessary harm to the tone of the mic). Increase the mic's gain a little more and repeat those steps again. Only dip the most troublesome frequencies (pick the top 3 to 6 freqs). Go back and make sure the mic still sounds good. If it doesn't sound good, or you can't get enough volume ater a couple of tries, try changing the monitor angle a bit and try again.

 

2. Setting gains so there's no clipping for the power amps, mixer, channels, trims etc ..:

 

Start by setting the input gain for each channel. Get the performer to sing/play their loudest part, bring up the gain knob untill you see the clip light and then back it down 3 to 6 db from clip (If it's a digital board, more like 12 to 16db). This is where the experiance factor comes in, some instruments will get very dynamic and some performers may hold back when doing a check. You have to outguess this and adjust the front end of the channel strip accordingly.

 

As for the output side, If your amplifiers have built in limiters, use them. I usualy set the amp volumes where the amp limit's somewhere around 0 to +3 on the boards output (somewhere around -12 on a digital console). This way you will hit the amps limiters before the board's outputs clip out. If you find that at performance volume you're amps are continuously going into limit (or clip if you don't have limiters), then you need more P.A to cover the room and the only fix for this is more amps and speakers.

 

 

3. EQing the FOH:

 

This is done different ways. I know what I sound like on an SM58 so I just use a mic @ FOH and listen. If it sounds Muddy I take out bottom end, Tubby or Barrel like, I take out lower mids, Squaky, I take out mids, Nasaly or Harsh, I take out upper mids, Sibilant, I take out top end. This just takes ear training and is also where experiance is a big plus. If you pay attention and have a good "sonic memory" you will get there in time.

 

Hope this helps.

[Dubravac]

I read somewhere that you can gain the power amplifier ... by playing pink noise through a CD player, through a channel on the mixer ... Gains through that one channel and crossover set to 0 ... then with the speaker cables unplugged at the speakers ... start turning up ONE channel on the power mixer until it clips ... then put the second channel to the same thing to equal out the amplification on each side ... is this familiar to anyone ? and is this a good way to set gains for the amp .. or does everyone just crank up the power amplifiers to full then do most of the gaining on the mixer ?

 

One more questions ... with regards to power amplifiers ... whats the general rule for choosing a power amp to matc your speakers ? I readon sweetwater that your power amp should be double the strength of your continuous speaker wattage. So for instance, i have EV QRX 115/75 tops (400W) and QRX 118S subs (600W) .... what would be the ideal, lets say QSC amplifiers or others i would need to run this system properly ... ??

 

Thx again, and thx JBRLE, your input as everyones is helping quite a bit !!

[Shaster]

Just answering your power question. Two times the continuous, is the absolute maximum (without some serious limiting) - and you had better know what you're doing( eg. gain sturcture, limiting, filters...).

 

It's been suggested here many, many times by many, many folks to power between 1 x rms to 1.5 x rms. With power at, or just above 1 x rms, being a safer bet for novices.

 

Sweetwater (and all the others) wants to sell gear (including more powerful amps) and have you marvel at how loud it sounds. And they don't really care if your gear lasts forever either - hence their recommendation to power at twice the level.

 

I'm not saying the pros can't do it, or that it won't work for certain lines, but maybe you shouldn't do it. I know I generally don't power above 1.5 x continuous.

[gonzobassman]

I am about where you are Dubravac,except I asked the questions before I got the gear,and I have mine powered close to RMS.For example when I set the whole thing up I run 2 Yamaha S115Vs per side of a QSC GX-5.That puts about 350 watts to each box.On monitors I run 4 SM115Vs with 2 QSC GX-3s hitting each box with 300 watts.I believe you have higher quality speakers so you may not be interested in the QSC GX series amps,but they really are quite good,and I got them right!!! Good Luck!!! As for sound check the above posts nailed it down pretty good.

[Dubravac]

Thanks again everyone ... some great info here.

 

SHASTER ... that is my next move, to learn about LIMITERS and COMPRESSORS. I'm sure it's quite the wild world lol ...

 

What do some of you think about the way to GAIN that i wrote in post #10 ??

[Dogoth]

 

Thanks again everyone ... some great info here. SHASTER ... that is my next move, to learn about LIMITERS and COMPRESSORS. I'm sure it's quite the wild world lol ... What do some of you think about the way to GAIN that i wrote in post #10 ??

 

 

Being pragmatic about things most of the time, it sounds like a pretty big waste of time. As I said in my earlier post "If you have amp limiters - USE THEM" and just make sure that your amp limits out before your board output clips. If you run your amps wide open, it will acomplish this but it's at the expense (probably (I say probably because different amps have different front end sensativity) of some added noise. Depending on the application the noise difference may not be an issue.

[killtheidols]

well im sure everyone has their ways.. ill tell you what we do at church

 

the sound engineer check the signal is getting well and he sets the gain and volume to a reasonable level, he is pretty good so he sets the eq to a pretty good sound. Then he opens the monitors and the main speakers and lets you feel your own sound, vocals or whatever...

 

you then say if you feel like more treble or whatever.. a good sound engineer will know how to balance the gain. we do each voice separately and then all of them. Then the guitars separately and then the acoustics together and after that the electrics together. In my case, (i play electric guitar) the sound outside is just like having a super big amp, in other words its the same i have on stage, the only thing i might check is the volume compared to the other instruments...

 

then we all play a song, and we check how all the volumes sound together.. and if its too bassy or something...

 

now... the amo thing.. i have the gain set pretty low... i play more with the eq and the mic placing... i need a pretty distorted yet clear sound (yes we go nuts with dirt in my church).

 

now the mic placement thing is like another eq pedal... so have fun with it haha it will define what will be heard... you can spend some time on it by your own.. sound engineers in my experience always set it up the same way.. and its not bad.. yet its not my favorite... i use a lot of bottom end and punchy sound.. but once again i need to be pretty clear.. its church

 

im more in the.. keep it solid, let the whole band sound awesome side of things... ometimes you need to sacrifice some stage volume in order to sound better "out" for the audience

[Dubravac]

How do you guys start with your FOH 31 band EQ ... i know some people have ways of starting with a kind of parabola curve, or other ways ... or do you flatten it completely and then change it ??

 

How about the EQ for monitors ?

[TheDoctorMo]

We usually keep our FOH EQ flat, from the start. Then, cut, as necessary. We haven't been loud enough to deal with much feedback from the FOH area.

 

As far as monitors go, we usually keep the adjusted curve, from one show to the next. However, our lead singer's vocal monitor EQ has all the sliders below 0. In other words, every frequency has been reduced, at some time.

 

So, at our next gig, I'm going to flatten our monitor EQ curves and start over.

 

mike

[monthlymixcd]

Your monitors should almost always have a HPF/lo-cut on them (most good EQs have this feature) and then really (if you have your monitor mix good to go) it's just a process of ringing them out for maximum GBF... then tweak a little as the performer desires... as long as it doesn't undo your work ringing them out.

 

As DrMo said... EQ'ing is usually a process of reducing the offending frequencies rather than boosting anything. A on your EQs is a tell-tale sign that yuo're a sound-noob. And +1 to what JRBLE described under #3 in his above post... although I typically do what he does in #2, #1, #3 order. Your ear will develop for this over time...

[Dubravac]

Like i said earlier .. i'm trying to absorb and learn as much as i can to help my band sound as best it can. Especially since we're buying new equipment very soon ... i want to make sure it runs optimally. I've seen some small venue sound check .. and see the sound guys using hand-held spectrum analyzers with RTA's on them as well ... do you guys feel they help to get an accurate audio EQ reading of the room you play in, then adjust your FOH EQ from the pink noise reading to compensate what the frequencies that are too high or too low ?