Record deals in Europe Vs USA

Like many of you guys I've read the Albini article, and similar stuff about the music business. I also stumbled over a transcript of a speach by (non other than) Courtney Love about the same subject. It's called "Courtney Love does the math" and you can find it here:

http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html

Anyways, I only found articles about the american music industry and I wonder if major label record contracts are set up the same way in Europe?

I particularly would like to know if european recording contracts follow the same pattern of:

-Company pays band advance.

-The advance is supposed to cover all costs of recording the album, all costs of producing the video, etc..

-If the band can't hold their budget, the band is financially responsible for paying back the red numbers to the record company, and this will be taken from the bands share of record sales.

I'd be thankfull for any insight here or maybe some links...

Bump.

I've recently been pondering this same thing.

Pretty much the same way in Europe, but also depends on the artist and the genre. A lot of pop hit stars get the old school big label treatment, while most metal acts are usually on the fringe of bankruptcy.

You can get some interesting insight in Tom Fisher's book (aka Tom Gabriel Warrior) of Celtic Forst fame. He describes the relationship with Noise Records International in quite some detail.

Sounds like an interesting read, although I've never listened much to Celtic Frost. I think I'll order it from Amazon. But as this book is set in the late 80's I guess there has been some changes in the industry since then.

blagh

Baldrick, actually his experiences span I believe up to 1995-1996 but yeah, most of it is based in the 80s.

I talked to the guys in Flotsam and Jetsam (I guess for the non-metal people here that would be Jason Newstead of Supernova's first band) and they go on tour for 6 months and work in construction for the rest of the year. The guys in Nevermore (Seattle metal band) also have jobs when not on the road, I believe Warrell Dane (vocalist) is a chef during the days off.

The bassist of Destruction (Germany) is a pizza restaurant owner.

Mentioning Celtic Frost again - the bassist owns a house painting business in Geneva so when not on the road he's painting houses.

All I can say is {censored} the record companies for reaping the benefits for all our hard earned money we may get lucky enough to hypothetically make. Yeah it's obvious us that appeal to the masses generate {censored} loads of cash, but at the expense of ourselves. And now if we sign to a major, we totally give up our own rights to our songs for 35 years! Let me be the first to say {censored} that. I care more about music than life itself, but I will never give up the rights to my songs without being compensated. If that means I never make money cause I have to do it myself, fine. Better than compromising my integrity and passion so some monopoly of a label can profit while I starve. When I was younger I use to think a record deal would set me free, and I came close at age 18. The band I was hired to play drums for got signed and then dropped. It wasn't til the past few years that I actually stopped caring if I made money in this business. I'm going to do my best, but since then have gained a lot more knowledge about my financial well being. Anyone else feel like me? Thanks for listening. I read the Courtney Love article and lost it.

I don't feel like you, but I do understand the frustration. I think people should just stop thinking the industry is there to help you out. They exist to help themselves, and hopefully you make some money in the process. End of story. It's such an idiotic idea to believe the machine exists to help you. It can certainly do that, but you have to use it just as much as it uses you.

-J.P. LUX

And what makes you feel that way? How long you been in the business? Have you been able to maintain even a moderate style of living off your music career? Read the article given by my man at the top of the first page. It's piracy from the record companies and the government could care less about gas prices let alone us musicians. Are you signed by a major? If not, you haven't experienced what I am talking about. I know way to many that have been {censored}ed. And you know what? I know the guys from Linkin Park, they barely broke even from the first record. They broke through a whole new avenue of music whether anyone here wants to admit it. They are nothing like the Limp Bizkit bitches or any of that. THey had/have a sound of their own regardless of how many people wanna hate on them cause their success. This new record they will finally make real money. And they deserve it way more than most of us on here. I know many will disagree about that, but to each their own. The proof is mostly in the paper. That band generated so many millions it's not even funny. If they were unsigned they would do better than most of us. Just cause of their market appeal. A lot of us are way better musicians technically, but consumers got over that in the 80's. Anyhow, read the article. Then tell me how you feel. Maybe you are just a passive guy that rolls with the punches- that's not me. I'll stand up and fight. I know it's wrong and it has been. It's just now worse.

You're rambling on, and on about nothing. Yes, I've read that article(Long time ago). Yes, I make a very nice living as a solo artist. All of that stuff about Linkin Park

I'm not passive about anything, and you standing up to fight means jack-{censored}. Fight against what? They don't care about you. You don't even exist. I don't waste my time worrying about the industry. Make good music, develop a following, and get out there and make it work. If people like you, maybe someone will notice.

They'll front the money, but they'll also want their cut. Whether or not it's fair -SHRUGS- We all know the real chance to make money comes with a second album. If you can't make it that far...just chalk it up to experience, and move on.

-J.P. LUX

Originally posted by jplux1 You're rambling on, and on about nothing. Yes, I've read that article(Long time ago). Yes, I make a very nice living as a solo artist. All of that stuff about Linkin Park I'm not passive about anything, and you standing up to fight means jack-{censored}. Fight against what? They don't care about you. You don't even exist. I don't waste my time worrying about the industry. Make good music, develop a following, and get out there and make it work. If people like you, maybe someone will notice. They'll front the money, but they'll also want their cut. Whether or not it's fair -SHRUGS- We all know the real chance to make money comes with a second album. If you can't make it that far...just chalk it up to experience, and move on. -J.P. LUX

Can't wait to hear your music. Rambling on? No. Expressing how I feel passionately yes. So FYS. I don't exist? You know jack {censored} about me. Who the hell are you to judge? I was stating my opinion, yet mostly facts. You say you aren't passive but you really are. I bet you can't pay for your rent and living needs just from your music. Correct me if I'm wrong. Cause I have more faith that your music is good enough to do so, yet the way the laws are now it's not possible. That was one of my main points. And the whole making money on the second album is so {censored}in 80's it's not even funny. I guess that's why this is America. So we can have people like you, people different than us, and the few people like me. Some of us have to have the balls to change things, stand up, and make changes. Chalk it up as experience? It's a believe df. I've been in this business for a long time. Disagree that's fine, but don't tell me to chalk something up I don't believe in. I know artists of all nature's. From all parts of the world and all sorts of differents marketing situations. Hope that wasn't too much ramble for your intelligent self.

Oh wait nevermind, I just realize your 22. Nice validation. Why even comment when you are almost a minor?

Where's your website? Where's the Myspace? Anything? You're 22 and make a great living in music? I'm curious. I wanna hear

-J.P. LUX

You make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

On that note. I'm out

-J.P. LUX

*unsubscribed*

Funny you are in denial and can't provide one validation of your music career. I'm raising points so people can think about the way they are choosing to market and deal with this rough business. Regardless of your age, you act like your 16. And if you are a great musician, or have a great band- show me the link. I am open ears. But I'm pretty sure you are just going to be a typical musican with the mindset of "All talk, no show".. Prove me wrong bro. I make no sense? Only cause your small mind can't open up to what I said.

Well, I'm not 22, I'm 51, and have been playing in bands since 1971, and I did make a living out of it. And I can tell you that for as rotten as record companies are, and as much as they have been suffering since the 70s, the music business didn't really start it's current rapid descent into the profitless {censored}hole it is now until the internet came along, and with it cheap home recording technology, and every swinging dick with a guitar, 6 months of lessons and 5 crappy "original" songs decided that they, too, could be rock stars, and {censored} the record companies. And what we have now is a jillion bands making records that ought not to be made, producing mountains of mediocre stuff for which no demand exists, and bands having to play for free and give away their CDs just to get heard. Yeah, the record companies made money off musicians. It's a business. So, who's making money now?

The trouble with musicians is and always has been that they spensd a lifetime learning how to play music and about 20 minutes learning the business of it, and guess what? They get taken advantage of. So, now we've managed to eliminate record companies. Big whoop. What's changed? Musicians are still getting {censored}ed over, only now it's by clubs, promoters, but more than anything else, by other bands, who constantly undercut each other just to get on stage somewhere and play their 9 or 10 songs twice a week if they're lucky for 10 bucks apiece, also if they're lucky. They can't afford to tour, they can't afford to promote, they can't afford anything, because the business just doesn't pay. Bands have agreed to not only play for nothing, and sometimes pay to get on stage, but also do all the promo, bring the crowds, and pretty much do everything but bus the tables (unless you're Ovation/Beachbum, then you did that, too.)

It's kind of sad that in the 70s and 80s, I was making 400-600 dollars a week plus rooms and sometimes one meal a day playing music, in 1980 dollars. That was back when gas was 47cents a gallon, a pack of smokes was 50 cents and you could get breakfast at Denny's for $2.25. My rent was 200 a month split with another guy. Fast forward to 2006, I'm lucky to get 100 bucks a night for one or two nights, but gas is $2.75, smokes are 5 bucks, and that breakfast at Denny's is about $7. Rent on an equivalent place to what I had in the 80s is about $1100 or more a month.

Yeah, the record companies might have sucked, and they have suffered in large part due to their own greed, bloat, and mismanagement. But tearing them down has left nothing to replace them. At least they were the gatekeepers, and you had to be reasonably good or reasonably commercial to keep the business going. Making a record was a big deal because not everyone could do it. You had to get approval from someone who could sell it and make it profitable, even for the musician, if he had a good head for business and/or a good contract lawyer. Did record companies put out commercial {censored}? Yes. But that commercial {censored} paid for the development of lesser knowns like Stevie Ray, the Police, etc etc. Guys like Barry Manilow's and Abba's record sales helped finance the risk of recording and promoting new bands.

When I made my first record in 1981, you had to be signed to do it, because not everyone had a 2" reel to reel, a 24 track board, a studio, and access to a vinyl pressing plant. Not to mention access to promotion and distribution. Now, everyone seems to think that all you need is access to promotion and you can make it. The key word here is "everyone."

Making a record used to be something you worked hard to get good enough to do someday, usually after years of experience honing chops and perfecting your craft playing in ever-increasing (and more profitable) road circuits. Today, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can make a record, and they are. So, yeah, it's great we're free from the shackles of the record company. But it's only cool until you realize that it makes you king of nothing.

I thought I'd point out a few ridiculous points you raised...

1. No, you don't exist to the labels. They run a business, not a daycare service.

2. All I do is create music, so if I couldn't pay my bills with it I would be doing something else. Moving along...

3.Most people don't make money on the 1st album. It's true.

4.Yeah, sorry...lots of musicians in their 20's make money. You sound bitter

5. Yeah, it's OBVIOUS that you make no sense whatsoever. Otherwise you would have actually read, and UNDERSTOOD what I wrote. I wrote that people shouldn't look to major labels to look out for them because they won't. Are you too dense to understand that?

6.Denial? WTH are you talking about? -troll-

7.I am a great musician, and I employ excellent musicians to back me up. I don't need to prove that to anyone. That, my friend is the beauty of being a musician.

8.Yes, I'm small minded because I don't agree with you...RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Try again, buddy.

I think it's safe to say that most people won't ever be approached by a major. If you are approached, it's because they think they can make millions off of you. They will do whatever it takes to make their money, but only what you're too dumb to miss in the first place. It's time for musicians to take back the power, and to stop being so quick to jump at the worst deal a label offers. If we all decided on a certain set of standards, maybe the industry would have to take another look. Until then, they won't do it. Certainly not if a young artist is willing to accept an 8 record deal with a $250k advance(inclusive of recording costs), 25% packaging deductions, ect.

-J.P. LUX

J.P. LUX and BlueStrat are so very right... And I just deleted everything I was going to type since they (and countless others) have already said it so many times on this forum (and probably others). But here comes a retort anyway (as I usually end up doing)!

Whoops deleted it again. I don't like arguing with narrow minded people. Especially really aggressive inflammatory ones. It's like strangling a cactus. It just isn't worth it.

Meh. I'm going to go check out some recording {censored}. Good luck if this keeps going guys.

-J.P. LUX

Still waiting for the link.

You first, pal

-J.P. LUX

Originally posted by jplux1 You first, pal -J.P. LUX

www.myspace.com/newlyformedmindset

I played everything, sang it all, and recorded it in my basement with less than $1000 worth of gear. Thank God it's the holidays so I should be upgrading a few things here. I sure could use the excellent musicians to back me up, but finding them here in Detroit has not been easy. And hey, I apologize for being a dick. I was pissed off and had to much to drink. I was pretty much just venting. If you make a living just playing music, that's bad ass. Hopefully someday sooner than later, more of us will be able to do the same.

Nice job-great vocals, especially. I'm envious!

Originally posted by BlueStrat Nice job-great vocals, especially. I'm envious!

Thanks a lot Blue! I really appreciate that. It's weird, most people either really like my voice or hate it. I had my stuff on Garage Band and it seems most musicians don't really dig my stuff. None of my stuff even made it to the 2nd round. For a while I had a 4.6.-4.9 out of 5 on one of my songs but then I would get the brutal reviews that would mess my score up. Oh well, I care what fans think not neccessarily musicians. Unless of course they like my stuff! lol

Hey, no problem! If I could sing like that, I'd have quit my job years ago!