Harder to Program: Kurz K2600r or Kawai K5000r

I want to go deep, just to see what's down there.

In your opinion, which of these two monsters is more difficult to program? And, while naturally it's subjective, which do you feel yields better results?

never tried the kurz, but I got a K5000s and its a great synth with a well organized OS. The idea of additive is not difficult for me but it is the most difficult synth to program. I spend an hour and come out with nothing usable....I really suck at programming that synth...I think I justneed to spend more time with it.

Whan you get into the depths of them:

with the k2600, you'll be more concerned with manipulating logical, function type things - much more computer-like, i think.

with the k5000, you'll be more concerned with which harmonics to use to get a desired result.

it's much easier to get usable sounds out of the k2600 because it's part rompler/sampler.

but you can get sounds out of the k5000 that the k2600 can't do (and vice-versa, i suppose).

if you're serious about getting into them, either one will give untold hours of equal parts programming enjoyment and hair pulling.

I have a Kawai K5000R and a Kurzweil K2000R - which is pretty much the same operating system as the K2600R. There are a lot of variables involved so it's hard to say that one is harder than the other. It depends on how deep you want to go, what kinds of sounds, etc. I've done a lot more programming on the Kawai than the Kurzweil, and I find it to be relatively easy and user-friendly, although I have worked with other Kawai synths in the past as well as Roland and Korg. When I bought the Kurzweil, I looked at the huge manuals and was totally intimidated, especially because it seemed quite different than what I was used to. However, I spent a lot of time going through the manuals and making an effort to learn the operating system, and eventually found that it was more intuitive and less daunting than I originally thought - although I'm not saying it's a piece of cake.

When I talk about programming, I'm not talking about starting from scratch and building a sound from the ground up. I usually find a sound that is in the general area as what I want (mostly ambient atmospheric sounds) and then tweak it by maybe changing waveforms or oscillators, playing with the envelopes, filters and resonance, working with the effects, layering different combinations of patches, etc.

It's hard to answer your question about which yields better results. Again, it depends on what you are looking for. But for the kind of ambient electronic music I do, the Kawai is one of the most unique synths ever made - it doesn't sound like anything else. A friend of mine has the Kurzweil K2600 keyboard and it sounds amazing - there's nothing bad I could say about it. However, I tend to favor the Kawai. It's also a lot less expensive. But the ultimate would be to have a Kurzweil keyboard controlling a Kawai K5000R.

I had a K5000S and reluctantly sold it due to space considerations and because it was just a joyless experience for me as far as programming.

Loved the knobbage, the feel of the keys, the overall look of the thing, and the concept.... just couldn't really get anywhere meaningful with it as far as programming interesting, usable sounds.

I think a software solution for additive would be better due to the inherent complexity and tediousness of programming all of the partials, etc -- a large, detailed GUI is essential for additive i'd say, along with a controller with many, many faders and knobs....

A lot of people swear by it for pad programming, and i can see where they're coming from, but i have a Wavestation that i think eats the K5000 for breakfast regarding evolving pads........ and i'm not that in to pads anyway, so..........

I do have a Kurz K2000S that i really love and at some point will probably upgrade to a K2600 or K2661. I like its balance of depth, sound quality and OS intuitiveness and find it very rewarding to program and play.

Originally posted by mildbill Either one will give untold hours of equal parts programming enjoyment and hair pulling.

Perfection....

Trut so pur

Originally posted by mildbill but you can get sounds out of the k5000 that the k2600 can't do (and vice-versa, i suppose).

just curious, but what kind of sounds "can't" you get out of either. Just looking for examples

Originally posted by EerieDreamZ just curious, but what kind of sounds "can't" you get out of either. Just looking for examples

something like, partials 4, 7, 10 and 28 - each with their own envelopes. or i should say, the ability to pick partials at whim.

you can't do that with the k2600. you could kind of 'kludge' it together, but i've never met anyone willing to put in that kind of time.

sounds that use 'FUNS' - you might be able to get those by using a k5000 in conjunction with a sequencer or some other 3rd party hardware, but it's take a bit of work.

you can't get rompler samples out of a k5000S either.

just some simple examples off the top of my head - I'm sure someone will be along shortly to refute these.

but hey - who ever said one machine has to be able to do it all.

Thanks for the input, all.

I'm leaning toward the Kawai for two, not-particularly-strong, reasons:

1. I've got a Kurz PC2x and the KSP8, so I have a bit of the Kurz flavor in my studio already.

2. The Kawai has an, arguably, unique sound.

The only additive synth I have currently is the D-50 card in my V-SynthXT, which I haven't explored too deeply yet.

Here's another question: the D-50 uses PCM waveforms, right? Is that also true of the K5000? Tru of all additive synths?

if I remember right, the D50 used just the attack portion of samples and these were then grafted onto single-cycle loops.

the k5000W has pcm samples in addition to the additive part (as well as a sequencer), but the k5000S is a pure synth.

I'm not sure how the oscillators are generated on the k5000S tho.

The K5000s has a PCM engine in it as well. The idea is that you would use PCM for the attack or noise portion of a sound - the part that would be the hardest to create with sinewaves alone. By themselves, they are not that great, but there are uses for sure. Like adding some body to a somewhat thin sound of your own creation.

The K5000W has an additional PCM synth engine that has it's own voices allocated to it, and was an attempt at a more workstation-like environment.

yep - i think you're right.

i had both the W and S. i used the pcm in the W, but never used it in the S, so i sort of forgot it was even there.

both are gone now, but i'm looking for a suitable replacement - likelys so far are all softsynth - cube, cameleon (sp?), etc.

hey idiotboy - (how the hell did you come up with that name? ) - when you get time, take a look here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun00/articles/synthsec.htm

traditional additive synthesis is based on adding sine waves together, not on pcm samples.

analog additive required multiple oscillators and EG's. I'm not sure how digital does it, but i remember reading something about it using a single oscillator that was somehow split into multiple partials.

the difficult part of additive is knowing which partials to use and how to shape the envelopes to get a specific result.

much easier to just go for soundscapes with something like the k5000.

its easier if your using presets...if your trying to program it than you run into the problem above....that synth is a real bitch to program...but it is so cool...I wish it wasnt soooo hard!!!

just turn up the amp. on all the partials and then use the formant filter, envelopes and controllers to sweep around thru them.

Good luck with the K5000 idiotboy.

I've thought about getting the K5000 many times. Once I get deeper into my K2500rs, I'll think about it again.

It would be nice if Kawai had given better instructions on starting points and processes when making patches. But as it has been said, it seems so unpredictable to know what partials and how to use the EGs to it.

Idiotboy, I've heard that the Wizoo book is really helpful to get your head around the idea of the synth and in programming.

The K5000 can produce awesome leads IMO, unlike anything else.

I've always thought that I will get one if I have a song that could really use it for leads and bass. Then I'd probably sell it once I got what I wanted out of it. For me, it'd probably be a song-killer, and I wouldn't get as much done.

How are editing the stock sounds? Does it produce good results as far as keeping a lead a lead. Turing a bass into another bass and so forth.

I would actaully like to get one, but I've been wondering how editing leads and bass, would yeild other good leads and basses. It almost feels like it would produce a lot of crazy ass FX if one is not careful with what parameters they edit.

Someone should post a YouTube of them editing the K5000 so others could get a better idea of it's difficulty. I think a lot of us who haven't used one, think that we could maybe just do simple editing or something like, after hearing all you guys who have owned one say it's a bear to edit.

So is editing the partial really unpredictable as in knowing what partials to edit what? 2nd question is, if you edit the partials of a lead patch, for example, would it drastically change the sound or could you just tweak a little and come up with some cool variations?

Idiotboy, don't worry. The Kawai K-5000 has just 900-1000 parameters per single patch.

Some say life is too short for K-5000, so think twice before getting it. The Kurz is complex in other way. It is more like "tips & tricks" machine. You don't know the trick, you can loose months, trying to figure out the solution. For example using this trick you can convert Kurzweil K series synth into a vector synthesizer.

If you like programming, you will like your Kawai K-5000. Recently i downloaded its manual, read the whole thing - looks ok. In fact, i find those two manuals for my Kurzweil K-2500 muuuuch more complicated. However, the problem with the Kawai is the UI. You got about 1000 parameters to set, without software editor, it would be a nightmare. In fact it is a nightmare, thats why they go so often on eBay.

Did anyone noticed, both synths have "K-xxxx" label. That stands for Komplicated.

Originally posted by Don Solaris Did anyone noticed, both synths have " K -xxxx" label. That stands for Komplicated.

That or it's a Killer

Originally posted by Don Solaris Idiotboy, don't worry. The Kawai K-5000 has just 900-1000 parameters per single patch. Some say life is too short for K-5000, so think twice before getting it. The Kurz is complex in other way. It is more like "tips & tricks" machine. You don't know the trick, you can loose months, trying to figure out the solution. For example using this trick you can convert Kurzweil K series synth into a vector synthesizer. If you like programming, you will like your Kawai K-5000. Recently i downloaded its manual, read the whole thing - looks ok. In fact, i find those two manuals for my Kurzweil K-2500 muuuuch more complicated. However, the problem with the Kawai is the UI. You got about 1000 parameters to set, without software editor, it would be a nightmare. In fact it is a nightmare, thats why they go so often on eBay. Did anyone noticed, both synths have " K -xxxx" label. That stands for Komplicated.

speaking of complicated synths to program, how is the K5000 compared to editing teh Korg Wavestation. I see you have an AD. How painful/easy/enjoyable is it to make cool pads on the wavestation?

Originally I was planning on getting a wavestaion and then decided on the K5000....at some point I make hawk it for a wavestaion after all.

Its possible that life is too short for the K5000.

Thanks for the input folks. Despite my thread title, I'm not overly concerned about the degree of difficulty, for several reasons:

1. I'm not trying to create the perfect english horn patch with it. I'm mainly interested in what kind of noise it makes.

2. I don't take any of this too seriously. Truth is I can barely program my TIVO.

3. I know how to sell something when I'm through with it.

...oh and yes, life is short. But, it's also for learning

+1

I have K5000 on my G.A.S. list at position 1. Will get it ASAP.

I find Wavestation very easy to program. It is a synth with very simple structure if you have some experience with wave sequencing and dynamic vector synthesis.

How good it is? No other synth, except Ensoniq TS series can create such timbral differences within single patch. You wont regret if you get one. Kawai K-5000 is different area so don't worry - they won't overlap each other.

I have some wave-sequencing demos here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=18287510#post18287510

With wavestation you do need some time. Not for fighting with menus and sub-menus, but for thinking about what exactly do you want - as it can create anything you imagine (within wavesequencing and vector limits). If you are a freak for synth programming (heh, i am) you will enjoy wavestation - downside is, you look at the clock, 4 hours pass just like that.