Bought a Hammond M111 and got some questions..LONG POST

Hi guys, It's been a while since I posted here.

A couple a days ago I bought a home pristine Hammond M111 (Mahogany finish & legs) , original manuals, bench and bronze lamp for $30. (will pick it up in 10 days or so until I find a reasonable and professional company to bring it to the new home, $ 220 ish.)

The owner (first purchaser) passed away a long time ago, his widow is a lovely old lady, moving out the house and trying to get rid of things she would never use anymore.

The organ is immaculate, not everything works. (more on that later on)

She NEVER dusted on the back (open, no panels) because the dealer told them not to use a duster to avoid breaking a wire, etc. So it has 44 year old dust, on the back.

She told me that she had it serviced "recently": off she went to bring me the repair bill: changed oil, tubes,adjustments, etc....DATE 1989!!! Meaning, never oiled again since 1989.

She used to turn it on twice a month, play for 5 minutes and off again, for the last 18 years or so.

I sat on it (never had a REAL Hammond before, just the GAS) and here are the things I noticed:

It takes a little bit to start (3 to 4 attempts) but It starts.

Wood work, Tabs, drawbars and keys:perfect cosmetic condition.

Expression pedal:fine althought I expected more volume because of its 22W tube power amp.(not a volume that would kill the neighbor)

Vibrato works fine.

Percussion: Nada

Reverb: Nada

Lower manual: all the keys play fine.

Upper manual: some keys have sound on them, some not, some with static, some hum,etc.

There's a note (cant remember which one) that is permanent, like a thin whistle. Pushed a specific drawbar to 0 and the sound dissapeared. While that note sounding (drawbar out) I pulled all the 12 note keybed, just a little bit, and the offending dissapeared. (bad/dirty contact?)

Saw the back, the tubes are labeled Hammond. The generator has the cover.

Cloth on the front (speakers), very good condition.

I've downloaded a service manual (PDF) just to start thinking what I will do first when I get it home.

I know that ordering oil will be the first thing to do. Can you guys recommend brand of oil, where to get it, how much would it cost? How much oil should I feed the funnels with? (3 funnels=2 for the generator, one for the scanner vibrato) I also know that it would take up to 1 week to get the oil into the system. What should I expect to be fixed once the organ gets its oil?

From here, I need the advice of the experts on the forum: what's next, how to troubleshoot.(I'm not a tech savvy)

Thanks a lot.

PS: past organs (since 1968): Teisco, Farfisa Fast 4, Yamaha Electone, Several organ patches on Synths, Hammond XM-1, Korg CX-3 (V2)

Forgot to add that my wife found/bought it for me. (I wasn't looking for one but she knows how much I love the Hammond sound)

C'mon Hammond experts, chime in!

I am a longtime Hammond owner and afficianado, but not a repair/service expert. I've done basic maintenance and a few repairs on mine. It does not sound like you have anything that is a show-stopper. It is a pristine organ that sat in the same place since purchased, which is a good thing. The 20 year old oil is not going to kill it, but it has likely dried up. I suggest NOT trying to run it again until you get some oil in it. You can buy oil from a number of dealers, but make sure you get the right stuff and DO NOT try putting in something used around the house like 3-in-1 oil or something (people have done it). Check out Goff or BB Organ - a few tubes of Hammond oil won't cost much.

Get the thing oiled up well and then get it running. Some of the scratchiness you describe might be resolved by putting De-Oxit or Cramolin on the drawbars (I forget which product is best).

This forum is not really a Hammond Tech spot. You may want to check out the Organized forum on Yahoo and there are a few others I've used over the years...google searches will help you find some more niche forums to search and get bonafide advice from more technical guys. We do have Mate Stubb aka Moe on this forum and he knows a thing or two about Hammonds.

You should also just talk on the phone with whichever place you buy your oil from and they will give you good advice for free. Bill Brown with BB Organ is awesome. He helped me eliminate some motor-boating problems with my A101's Chorus/Vibrato. The solution was taking a 9-volt battery with a wire attached to it and brushing this against the C/V area under the hood. Things like this are great and can usually happen over the phone pretty easily.

I recommend trying to befriend someone like this.

Good luck!

Regards,

Eric

Sorry, I think I need to clarify some of the points.

Percussion: Nada=doesn't work

Reverb: Nada=doesn't work

Thanks Eric.

Not to mention Suit & Tie Guy

Been Nursing my M-101 back to health over this last year. Was DOA when I picked it up last July. Had amp issues, broken wires, etc. Outside of a sometimes sticky G-pedal, she's now 100%.

Eric's recommendations regarding oil are spot on. Use Hammond oil only. One 1/2 oz. tube spread equally between the three funnels should do it. Do not run the organ if you hear any screeching - oil it and wait a few days before running it again. It doesn't sound as if you're dealing with a bound-up TWG. Just give the oil time to work - no exrteme measures needed.

Dirty contacts and the upper manual problems might improve just from playing the organ. The organ is designed for robust reliability. Contacts (drawbars, keys, switches, busbars) tend to clean themselves. Give a minor scratchiness problem some time before pulling things apart.

Of utmost importance - lock-down the tonewheel generator before you move the organ. Failure to do so could cause wire breaks you'll be trying to reolve later on.

Regarding the reverb - look for simple problems first. The m-100 series use a separate amp and speaker for reverb. when looking at the back of the organ - the reverb amp is to the right of the main amp. Check to see that the tubes are lit. Check that the red and black wires are connected to the left most speaker. Check to see that the green and black wires are connected from the main speakers to the reverb amp.

If percussion is failing for both harmonics over the entire upper manual - could be a tube issue (one of the 12AU7's IIRC) or the perc cut-off needs to be adjusted.

I got some solid help from the folks on the Hammond Forum at the Organ Forum (organforum.com). You might try there for some extra help too.

First things first. Get it home and get it oiled. From my experience things are pretty easy to fix yourself. Just tackle one problem at a time.

Congrats

Bones, great advice:thanks.

I know it's going to be a long run project, one thing at a time.

I've subscribed the Yahoo Hammond Zone group and, re the oiling, this is what I got from one poster:

"...Fill each one of those funnels three

quarters full and let it drain into the generator. The oil is soaked

into felt pads and along cotton wicks to the bearings, hence the time

needed, don't try to keep the funnels full..."

The question: is there a mark or markings somewhere to see how much oil is getting into the funnels? I do not want to over oil it.

No markings that I recall. Over oiling is really bad -gets on components, makes a mess.

On the first oiling I used 1/2 a 1/2 once tube and let it sit a few days. For the second oiling, I removed the TWG dust cover and applied the remaining 1/2 tube of oil dircectly into the cups (these are fed from the funnels). There's a felt inside the brass oil cups that should be quite wet but not sitting in a pool of oil.

Just order Hammond generator oil from Goff: is this the same oil that should be applied to the scanner vibrato funnel? Goff told me (almost discouraged me) to oil the scanner vibrato...Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Found some info here:

http://www.bentonelectronics.com/serviceinfo.html

AFAIK, yup, it's the same oil. If you're looking at the back of the organ - it's the left funnel. Over oiling can mess-up the scanner and they're a pain to fix. Maybe that's the concern... But if it hasn't been oiled in 18 years and you're careful not to over oil...

I met Dave V. (of Goff) when I was trying to find solutions to my amp problems. The amp was seriously shot and I think my spinet just wasn't a big enough deal for them. I ended up not having them fix it and I just droped in a working amp from another organ myself.

I don't know. My experience with Goff aside, Dave V. knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Good advice given so far; nothing new for me to add at the present.

Lock the generator, move it, oil it, wait a day, and play the crap out of the top keyboard. Most of those scratchy notes will come back.

Then attack the reverb and percussion problems. First make sure all tubes warm up.

Thanks Moe.

Does anybody have photos of the generator and the bolts/washers, etc. that need to be tampered with in order to lock the generator during moving?

Thanks a lot for the help.

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/MovingAHammond

Thanks Bones.

Hi guys,

Well, last Saturday I picked up the organ.

First thing I did was some cleaning in the back from dust, cleaning the tubes, etc. There's some "spots" of rust on top of the amplifier chassis, I guess from drops of oil that burned with the amps.heat? The pins on the tubes are clean.

Oiled it Sat night and waited until Sunday noon to power it up.(all the tubes work)

1) The motor doesn't slip as It used to.

2) Lower keyboard plays fine, no scratchy noises, all the keys play.

3) Reverb is working!

4) Percussion seems to be working.

5) Upper keyboard, some notes play, some don't (depending on the drawbar I pull), some notes play fine, some notes have this "electric" type of sound (difficult to describe): on these, either there's no sound at all or sound comes and fades out, like a "watery" sound.

I read the service manual and after playing all the notes for an hour (staccato and legato) no clean sound at all.

Read also in the manual about the busbar shifters, found them-very difficult to figure out- and moved the metal "tongue" inside the drilled hole of the black wood block UP and DOWN several times. Sound is still not coming "clean" or no sound at all on certain harmonics.

If the generator was faulty, the lower manual would have problems as well, right or wrong?

I checked the drawbars (from the back) and all the soldering looks fine, no rust there.

So, I'm kinda lost here: should I have to wait more time for the oil to do it's magic? What does the oil lubricates?

I thought that one of the reasons the upper manual is not playing as fine as the lower one could be because of the fact that the previous and only owner since 1965 only knew to play with ONE manual and used only that one: could it be? (guessing the manufacturing year because I saw in the back a piece of tape-assume from a worker at the Hammond factory-that states his name and oiled on 12/01/1965)

The other "certified" (maybe the owner did it by himself, I don't know) oiling was done on 12/89 (by a tech) although when I move it to my house with a guy that only moves organs (big consoles and spinets) and pianos told me, while he was locking the generator, that the bolts where "oily".

So, any help/encouragement is appreciated.

PS: by the way, Vibrato Celeste I and II combined doesn't sound that bad. (I know, it's not a Leslie...)

unfortunately Suit & Tie Guy has been spending more time away from the computer as usual and completely missed this thread.

sounds like the guy got a pretty nice organ, and since everything works maybe he should have the AO-29 amplifier recapped so nothing else bad happens. not to mention the AO-10 reverb amp.

congratulations!

Agree!

I've just received the first estimate to clean/lube the bus bars.

According to the technician, he suggested doing both manuals, 3 to 4 hrs.job in my house, two men...$600...OUCH!!!!

For a single manual, he estimated $ 450...OUCH AGAIN!!!!

I've read some info and just to take the manuals apart, all the wires must be unsolder...Geezzz, is that true?

There is a lot of disassembly required to get to the side of the keyboards inside and remove the bus bars for cleaning.

I would try shifting them again, you really need to play the thing for a couple weeks hard before you eliminate all the problems due to dust and dirt.

I'd wait on investing in bus bar cleaning just yet for three reasons...

1.) Like mate_stubb said - try moving the bar again and play it, play it, play it then play it some more.

2.) The more familiar you get with the organ - stuff you read, work you do - the more confidence you have to tackle the bigger issues. There's not too much high-tech about a tonewheel hammond. After a couple months you might decide to tackle the bigger jobs yourself after you've had success with the smaller problems. That was pretty much my experience (although I did not need to touch the bus bar).

3.) The mistakes I made - like spending money on parts I didn't need - arose generally out of my frustration. I even did additional damage to the tonewheel wiring because I didn't take the time to read the service manual more carefully. Slow down. Give it time - give yourself time to figure things out.

Try posting on a forum more oriented toward hammond restoration. There are many DYI folks out there that are happy to share what they know.

Thanks everybody for the input.

Just received a phone call from a different technician (38 yrs. experience, brick and mortar shop for Hammond and Leslie repairs and parts, etc.)

He is coming home for a diagnose ($90).

He quoted $275 to disassemble both manuals, off to the shop (the manuals) for bus bar job, and back to my house for assembly. (I understand he has to unsolder a lot of wires for this and then re solder, according to some reading I did and he also told me that the spinets are far more complicated than a full console, ie, not that accessible)

I will pay the $90 for his expertise regarding diagnosis and go from there.

He also told me that he recommends taking apart the generator and oiling it upside down... that after 19 years w/o oil, oiling from the funnels doesn't get the oil to all the parts involved. By the way, what does the oil lubricates?

Thanks again.

Oil lubricates the bearings on the tonewheel generator shafts. There are felt pads there that the oil travels to via fine threads, drops travelling down them via capillary action.

There is a separate cup to oil the scanner stator for the rotating vibrato switch.