New to lyric writing - advice please?

Hi. I've been playing bass for about a year and a half now, and am looking to form a band when I start college in a month or so. I've been thinking that if I can have some lyrics written when I'm searching for band members, I will be of more interest to people, and so am more likely to get together with other musicians.

But I have zero song/poetry writing experience, so some advice would be appreciated. I've been reading through lyrics as I listen to my kind of music (punk/hardcore), and studying rhyme/rhythm just like we used to in highschool English Lit, so I'm stating to see how song are actually formed. But when I try to get down some lyrics of my own, I can get nothing out at all.

So, some advice would be appreciated. When starting off writing a song, should I have a rhythm in my head to fit the lyrics around, or should I get something down and then work the rhythm around the words? I'm definately not short on material for subject matter or ideas, but it's getting my ideas down in a flowing, structured fashion that I am struggling with. Would it be of use to write down ideas as continuous prose and then trying to form lines and rhymes from that?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Hey Lorne,

I think everyone does it differently - it's really what you feel most comfy with. Personally, I almost always write the music first and THEN the lyrics - my lyrics tend to fit my music better that way. Other people I'm sure do the exact opposite. Try it both ways and see which one comes more easily to you.

I also like to have a structure in mind for the song when I start. What am I trying to say? How many stanzas am I giving myself to say it? That sort of thing. This may sound cheeseball, but I personally write an outline for my songs like I would with any essay!

Also, it sounds like you're getting frustrated, which to me means that you might be putting pressure on yourself to get something GOOD out FAST! If so, the best thing you can do for yourself is to totally relax .... only come out with whatever's natural. Try writing some lyrics without thinking about what the end result is going to sound like. The point of this is to not only make yourself more comfortable writing, but so you can start getting an idea of what your personal style is (i.e. do you like using lots of imagery, do you like telling stories - where your strengths are in general). If you don't feel like writing melodies specifically for this purpose, then just take a tune you like from the radio and write alternate words for it. (This is actually sorta how I got started - writing parodies a la Weird Al!!)

This is of course all assuming that you WANT to be a songwriter. Long term, do you WANT to write the lyrics when you're in a band? There are a lot of singer-songwriters out there who are happiest writing their own stuff and then working with a guitarist/bassist/drummer to make it come to life. To them, it might be perceived as more of a strength if you don't come with your own songs. It really depends on what you/they are looking for.

Good luck!!

Just do it !

Really just sit down and right a bit, if a melody pops into your head great. If not, don't worry. See what happens.

Also keep in mind that songwriting, like any skill takes practice. Most people will NOT write an awesome song the first or second or third time trying...(or 4th,5th,6th,etc. story of my life!

Just try doing it and see what happens. You can make a form for your song before you start to have some guideline.

Like:

Intro

Verse

Chorus

Verse 2

Chorus

Verse 3

Chorus

End (simple enough...)

In my experience, when I started writing, I was really into punk stuff too, since then I've gotten into more melody-based fantasy and imagery type lyrics, but really, don't expect lyrics to come out the exact way you want in the first few songs you write. When I went back and looked at my first songs, I felt so embarrassed that I wrote those lyrics.

My personal style of writing now is coming up with a guitar part, then a melody (I usually come to vocal melodies via guitar riffs i think will translate well into vocal melody), then I let words I wanna express fit into the melody. After a while your own personal style just kinda takes over. It's just a matter of being relaxed and comfortable with what you're doing. I hope I helped.

~ Gopher

see here for more...

I think starting the lyrics first in most cases is a recipe for writer's block and staring all night at the wall. I generally put no pressure on myself initially for lyrics. First it's the chords and rhythym and seeing if i can find a melody. Once I'm willing to commit to the melody, I'll overdub nonsense lyrics. You get a sense of how many words/syllables you can fit. Often times, out of the nonsense, one or two poignant lines will stand out. Suddenly you start realizing what the song might be about and its a slow process of taking the nonsense and telling a story. The point about structure is a good one, but once your well into the process. I have a 20 dollar tape recorder handy, a notebook by my bed, and will leave lyrics on my cell phone a-machine if they occur to me. Some good lines can come while out on Friday at 3am. Expect much of it to be junk. Avoid pretensions when possible. Realize people before you have experienced your emotions before and written about them. Don't try to be overly literary or have a goal of impressing people. Use the unique voice everyone has, the unique perspective etc. Don't squander opportunities. Every line is an opportunity to convey something and move the song forward. Don't surrender to cliches. Be wary of words that have been worn down in common speech to the point where they don't mean anything. so many words have been so overused they go in one ear and out the other. didn't mean to ramble, just my two cents.

I dunno if you're a book person or not, but there's a book on the craft of lyric writing out there by Sheila Davis. It doesn't specifically deal with your type of musical preference but pays attention to the structure of a song in general. It could get a bit too technical for some. Browse thru it first, if you get the chance.

For me, coming up with the music is inspiration, coming up with the words is perspiration.

Since it came up, I will say that in my opinion the Shelia Davis book AND the Pamela Sue Orland (I think that's the woman's name!) books aren't worth investing in.

Shelia Davis DOES put out an actual "workbook" that may be of some use to work through- but for my money, check out

"Writing Better Lyrics" by Pat Pattison

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582970645/qid=1031282229/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-5132047-5079358?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It is EXTREMELY helpful in developing your own style and a better command of language. I've read many, many books on songwriting and this one is at the top of my llist.

Also invest in a thesaurus and rhyming dictionary- they come in handy sometimes.

Peace,

Bryan

sorry, first post didn't take, try this link

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102211

Contrary to other posters, here, I almost ALWAYS start out with a lyric idea. Often it's simply a matter of sitting down with the first line in my head and then letting my typewriter and fingers take me somewhere.

I have more trouble writing music to fit the lyrics, but I find that if I keep coming up with new stuff on guitar, sooner or later I'll find the piece of the puzzle that fits with the lyrics. Can take 5 minutes or 5 months; I'm constantly trying old unused riffs and chord progressions with the lyrics. Once I get something I like, I try to craft a melody to glue the lyrics to the chord backing.

I realize this is the opposite of most songwriters (especially pianists) but it works for me.

Try writing music first, then lyrics, and vice versa. Different styles come out the different ways you do it. What works great for me is writing the music, then coming up with a name - sorta randomly, based on how the song feels. Off that name you just start writing lyrics on the subjuct.

Also, try keeping a songbook and just write down anything that seems interesting - a catchy rhyme you have in your head, a melody, etc. Then, when later on if you have music but no lyrics, just match it up to something in your book.

Its all personal preference, so just try different ways.

I'm not much of a lyric writer....so normally I write the music first. Sometimes though....I'll get "inspired" by something horrible or unimaginable and then the words start flowing (I play Metal...almost death metal).

Everyone has their own preference. Since you don't/haven't written poetry I'd be tempted to write the music first, lyrics second. I wouldn't worry about the vocal melody till later.

Wow! I never thought about it before but thats really how the majority of my stuff is written.

Heres my 2c...

The musical idea doesnt have to be anything remotely complete. Once you got it (could be a guitar riff, bass line...even a cool drum beat) name it the first thing that pops into your head when you think about what the musical idea makes you think about. the name is not important (hell its your song you can change it later if you like), its the subject matter the name inspires that is important.

It also helps alot when your bandmates want you to play something of yours and theyre goin "you know man!! that ONE song! it goes "junt junt junt junt junt junt...." hehe...much easier cus you can say "oh!! that ones called "Big titties"...err or whatever...(sorry...damn girls gone wild infomercials stuck in my head lol)

Get a rhyming dictionary asap. I cant write without one and it helps you learn how to rhyme.

Also, listen carefully to what other songwrites do...famous ones....how many times they repeat the chorus...if the chorus starts the song(You give love a Bad Name)....if the song is a "round"(Turn by the Birds, The Edmund Fitzgerald)...if the song even has no rhyming words at all(Spirit of Radio)stuff like that. You'll start noticing that there are tons of ways to write songs and it gives you a place to start from.

The beatles are a great place to start because they did all those things PLUS knew how to write a hook. Experiment and have fun..

Have you ever done a freewrite? What i mean is, sit down for 15 minutes and just write whatever comes into your head, even if you write it word by word. After that try doing it with the guitarist playing the tune for another 15 mins or as long as you want. You're bound to have enough cool phrases from freewrites to last a song and maybe 2!

I find if you keep the idea of songwriting in the back of your head and listen to everday speech you will find catchy phrases and so on that you can use to base your song on, genereally you should haver a good idea what your song is going to be about and then try spilling every idea you have onto a piece of paper, so what if you dont like it at first, you can always rip apart your lyrics and add new pieces whenever you want, after you are happy with your lyrics its important to find a melody. After you find your melody record your lyrics on tape and grab your guitar , try playing the lyrics and foolin around with chords , power chords even if you must , not every song comes as fast as you want it to, ask any songwriter , they usually dont like their own work, but then they play it and people love it, be original, dont be afraid to try new things, nobody wants to hear the same music played over and over by numerous bands, a new style is what its all about. Even try taking a cool chord and changing it to make a new chord, try taking away certain fingers and adding new finger placements in random places, you'll be surprised with what you find. Theres so many wise people on here ..i wish i was lol

Here's what works for me:

Pick a subject...How can you tell your friends are really your friends (first thing that popped into my head)

Then just write about it. Doesn't have to be in poem form, or stuck into the confines of verse/chorus/verse 2/etc.. Write a good page or page and a half about it, your feelings about it. Then the next day, if you have more you want to write about it go ahead and do it. Re-read over it and find sentences in it that catch your eye. They might sound similar, have the same amount of syllables, it doesn't matter but just make sure you pick sentences that, for whatever reason, seem to stick out.

Take those sentences and put them together so that they make sense. Don't have one sentence be before a sentence that is about a totally different aspect of the originial subject. (this is why it is better to write a page about it...so you have more to fish for.)

Once you have done that, change the structure of the sentences so that it flows pretty easily. By changing the structure I mean...so instead of having a "the' at the start of the sentence, switch it with a "but", etc. Don't change the whole topic of the sentence. This is when you can try putting it in poem form if you want. Once it's written out, don't touch it yet.

A very important but over-looked part : Make sure they lyrics fit the song! Don't put emo-lyrics in a song that is hard and aggressive. Make sure the lyrics belong in the right song. If you're taking the time to write meaningfull song lyrics, don't do it 1/2-assed.

Once you have your song, play with just trying to fit the words into it without it sounding rushed (give yourself or whoever sings it time to breathe...don't want them running out of breath mid-sentence.

Once you get an idea of where you want what sentences in which parts of the song, work on how many syllables each sentence should have...typically it goes 7-5-7-5-7 for harder rock.

Now you have the meat of the song, and now you work on the melodies and harmonies of the lyrics.....

Ultimately do what's easiest for you...don't think of writing lyrics as work, think of it as a form of expression. Don't write about {censored} that doesn't mean anything to you...songs are an expression of oneself so make sure you mean what you are writing. (Hope that made sense)

GOOD LUCK!

Here is how I do it.

First, I remember that the song is not going to come out in its' final form, and I set my expectations.

Second, I think of the story I want to tell, not in rhyme, not as a song. This can be a really simple sentence or two. Write this down, you'll come back to it.

Third, If I have any inkling of the type of imagery I'll be using, I make a big list of all the words that can fit. This is kinda dorky, but it helps to generate creative thoughts. For instance, you had in your head some line that ended in "sex drive" So, I'll go with drive and anything to do with cars. Notice that the words may be car related, but used in a way that has nothing to do with cars.

I broke down and...

you shift gears and pull away...

there's no spark anymore

we're not hitting on all cylinders

ran outta gas

...and whatever else comes to mind. Now you're not gonna use all of these, but again it sparks the creative process.

Fourth, I try to figure out the beginning, middle and end of the song.

Fifth, I write the verses

Sixth, I look over what I have written and I try to find a hook for the chorus if any.

So now you have the basis for the song. Then I work the words over with a 2 x4. Make sure the syllables match vs to vs. Check for forced sentence structure and complete lameness. Is it trite, overused, distracting from the topic? out it goes.

Then I go back and try to look for places to use word play, better imagery, unusual imagery etc.

Then I write the music. I have to do lyrics first, otherwise I don't know what type of music to write.

Hope that helps

Nick

you're the man Nick.

Wow, great posts!

Regarding songwriting: I am definately a student, not a teacher, but- I read that Sheila Davis book and the most valuable skill it taught me was how to listen to songs you like and map out their structure. Becoming familiar with song structures will be like turning on a light and discovering the structure you need to understand to create a song rather than lines of poetry. A song is not a poem.

Also, you can map out the what when where why and point of view before starting to make sure it all matches and flows correctly.

There are several song structures, but the most common seems to be Verse/Chorus:

Verse

Chorus

Verse

Chorus

Bridge

Chorus

Listen to your favorite songs and see if you can pick these parts out. When listening to songs I have noticed that some of my favorites use climbs leading to the chorus which is a neat effect... musically and lyrically climbing up to the Chorus... aural foreplay.

The verses can tell the listener what is going on- to set up the chorus. The chorus should be some kind of conclusion to the verse... like, VERSE "and this is why I say..." CHORUS. After the second chorus the Bridge is lyrically and musically/rythmically different, like a different song within the song.

The Chorus lines should end with vowel sounds so you can sustain the note.

After learning this stuff I've found that my favorite part in many songs is the bridge. A Bridge can be all lyrics, or half lyrics & half solo, or all solo, or whatever you want.

Also you can use Modulation which is changing key... like shifting up higher and higher as the song progresses... Barry Manilow mentioned that on the Actors Studio show. Also he said, "If I've learned one thing, the listener has to know when you've arrived at the chorus." I like rock music, but a good sonwriter is a good songwriter regardless of genre.

-Use active listening- analyze your favorite songs.

-Make sure the listener can tell the difference between the verse, chorus and bridge if you want them to stay interested. Also make sure they can identify with the idea of the song and can hear the words clearly.

Keep a notebook next to your bed for when you get lyrical ideas while laying in bed at night or they'll be gone forever.

Learn chord progressions and what kind of chord leads to what kind of chord... that is what I am working on now. I have a hundred pages of lyrics from the last 3 years, but need to get my chord/progression knowledge caught up with my lead playing ability!

Revise, revise, revise. This includes throwing out lines you really wanted to use.

When I get a catchy lyrical idea that comes out of nowhere it always seems to be the chorus.

I have lots of lyrics, but I can't imagine writing muisc to lyrics. Music first is way easier for me and most professionals (Billy Joel for one) write the music first.

In addition to Verse/Chorus there is also AABA--- there are Billy Joel and Beatles songs (Yesterday, I think) written in this form (and MANY others)

Have fun

this site is great!

I usually write and record the entire song, drums and guitar, before I really write the lyrics. I have run into some problems with needing to change the song structure around a bit once I flesh out the lyrics, but this helps me stay focused.