Getting suggestions when writing??

I am in a cover band, but we also do some originals that I have written.

I am starting up an all original side project using the same members in my cover band, for now. I will be the chief song writer. I already have around 30 songs in various stages.

Here's my problem:

I can't get it through to my lead guitarist that he needs to just play what I tell him to play until I get the main part of the song down. He constantly starts playing something else and says "I like this riff".

I am certainly open to suggestions once the main part of the song is down, but he throws everything off by playing something other than what I'm telling him to play. Sometimes the song takes on a completely different feeling/tone than what I was trying to convey.

Any suggestions on how to fix the problem?

1. Fire him.

or

2. Record the parts. Maybe he'll learn them like a cover tune.

or

3. Did you "tell" him or "ask" him to play certain parts?

4. Do you bribe your band with pizza, beer, or porn?

This sometimes help.

this is coming from another lead guitarist: lead guitarists are usually assholes who refuse to listen to the songwriter; only when they become professionals for YEARS, do they finally start listening better (and thinking better). guitar is such an egotist's instrument, so here's your solution:

fire him and find a very young and malleable or very experienced player who understands the songwriting process better . . .

OR,

keep him, but not before putting him in his place. (this could work, but you'd better have some huge balls!):

(a songwriter actually did this to me when i was the super-fast riff a-hole teenager/early twenties guy - i got the message and started being more symbiotic in my work with him [and, as a result, he actually started my professional career] About a year after, the songwriter told me that he didn't intend to fire me at all; just teach me a lesson. NOTE: this method is definitely effective in changing his behavior, but if your guy's cocky enough, he'll just quit. either way, problem solved!)

okay, here goes:

without announcing it to the group's guitarist, just take another lead guitarist to the practice and tell him to sit and listen. don't tell anyone that he's a guitarist; just a guy who wants to hear the rehearsal. they might start assuming he's a manager or something else. then, start rehearsing and addressing the new guy as to how the songs go from a guitarist's perspective and the lead guitar's role (this is all with him sitting on the side without his guitar in his hand and with your guitarist playing the rehearsal). let your player catch on that he's a guitarist without saying it outright. the effect will be incredible if you make the current guitarist in your group play the parts solo for the guy to listen to in front of everyone and explain to him the riffs. (truth is, the guy you bring doesn't even have to know how to play the guitar! in fact, if he doesn't, it just makes it all the more amusing to you!) if your guitar player asks (either later [like i did] OR in the moment), just tell him that this other player wanted to be familiarized with the lead guitar parts for the original songs - PERIOD; END OF DISCUSSION. let him go figure out what that means.

bro, playing out a lot involves personnel changes - a lot of personnel changes. (substitutions, too. i can't count how many times i've covered another dude's part in some group for just a night or two) among my group, my friends and i have all been removed from a project at one time or another; it's the nature of the beast. we've also removed players, too; many good players, even

many times, you can work with your friends, but many more times than that, once things get serious, friends don't make great bandmates - unless they became friends AFTER becoming bandmates. musicians, in many ways, have the tendency to not understand what profession is. i think it may be tied to the dream that starts every player playing.

someone in management in another professional organization wouldn't hesititate to address the situation in a very serious way before it becomes a real threat to production; and if the problem continued, the guy's out. you are an organization as a band. your ultimate goal is to be productive; famous and rich, maybe not, but productive in an artistically satisfying way. (in fact, who {censored}ing cares about being famous and rich besides non-artists and people who have no understanding?)

it's so funny, 'cause after this whole professionalism litany, the thing i originally suggested for you to do with the other guitarist could come off ass a little gamey, but the thing is, you have to be a bit unorthodox since your guitar player doesn't understand what you're trying to do and the professional approach needed. if he's a bright enough guy, though, he'll get it. and if not, fuggit, just kick his ass!

good luck with that!

OBSERVATION: drummers, pianists, and bassists are so much cooler and more respectful of other's work; more willing to compliment another, too. guitarists are constantly in competition with one another and -usually- when they feel threatened, they start dissing the other guy's playing or just get quiet! i know all this, 'cause i've done all this. i can't tell you how many times i've said a player sucks in my younger years to go back now and listen and be enthralled, man. it's happened time and time and time again. it may have to do with how easy the guitar is to learn and how quickly you can feel successful at it - i don't know. i'm not a psychologist.

anyway, that's that. good luck.

ps - he's a guitar player, so another thing you could do is just give him sheet music! he'll be out the door in a minute!! lol.

Here's the alternative to Bluesway's approach (not that it's without merit, just that it could use a counterpoint)--get over yourself and collaborate. This guy has no reason to be interested in taking orders from some chump who's decided that he's a songwriter. When he is learning a cover song, the value is apparent--I learn this song, I play this song for people, people like the song, so people will like me. Paying gigs, Jager shots, and BJs follow.

On the other side, what good does it do him to learn your song? He (presumably) sits at work 9 hours a day and listens to someone tell him what to do. Then he heads over to band practice, cranks up his guitar, and listens to you tell him what to do? That sounds like a fekking blast.

Until you've proved your merits as a songwriter, this guy's artistic input is just as valid as yours. Take it, and be grateful for it.

I've been a sideman who added the part that brought a song to life, and I've been the songwriter who's had a song take off because of someone else's input. It's a beautiful thing--let it happen.

Bluesway:

Thanks for taking the time to write your response.

I have already talked with another guitarist that I may start working with if things don't get worked out.

By the way I am the drummer in the band, but I am also a fairly good guitar and keyboard player as well.

Chicken Monkey:

I have already proven myself as a songwriter. I had toured all over the East Coast with an all-original band in which I wrote 80% of the material (back in the mid 80's). And as I said we already play some of my newer material that I have written. It gets very good responses every time we play them.

So, before you call me a chump, realize who you are talking to first.

I already said that I would welcome suggestions to my songs. I just wanted to get the main part down first.

You tell me how you write a song that you either already have basically formulated in your head or are already playing when someone else starts playing something that is completely different than what you envision the song to be.

I would love to know how you work when you feel the song should have a hard rockin section and the other guy starts playing a funk riff.

How about when the parts he's playing has completely different timing than how the drums, bass, keyboards, and lyrics go?

As for what he gets out of it, he gets to play in an all-original band that may someday get to play some fairly large gigs, who knows. Besides, he is certainly welcome to write his own material. I would welcome it and help him if he wanted help.

I'm with you. It's the songwriter's prerogative to have his songs played as he hears them. I write all the stuff in my band. I often let guys come up with their own parts unless the part I'm hearing is integral to the song: a specific bass line, a specific drum pattern, a specific horn line ( i usually use a sax and trumpet player). After the songs are learned, tight and on stage for a few months, they start to evolve, as they should. Once in awhile, one of the guys will start doingf something I don't like, and I just tell him "I liked it better before" and that's the end of it. Collboration is great, but the song needs to be learned first before it can be improved upon, IMO, and the guy with the say is the writer.

Man, I feel your pain! Been there, Treated like stink!

Is there anything worse than being an accomplished multi-instrumentalist/writer when you happen to be the drummer?

EVERYBODY treats you like, "That's nice Bobby, now go back behind the drums until we ask for you again.... Showoff!"

(Sorry, some leftover rage I guess)

Originally posted by Kingnome (Sorry, some leftover rage I guess)

leftover justified rage. i've seen the drummer in some groups be -hands-down- the most musical and talented guy in the group - perfect pitch and all. but, their input is still only limited to groove and dynamics (and, on a good day, form).

usually, the guitarist/singer is the oppressor, too. (that was me for a bit!)

i see what you're saying, and i don't at the same time.

im in a band and we've been looking for a drummer-- we have a good general idea of how we want the songs to sound and progress, yet when drummers come in they never seem to get what we're going for and they just end up completely screwing everything up.. so we always end up showing them the recording we have with computerized drums and trying to get them to play that.. they never want to. so yeah, i get what you mean

on the other hand, it is only this way for us because we've been without a drummer from the beginning and we've already written the songs in their entirety-- if the drummers had been there from the beginning they would have had more of a part in the songwriting process and the songs would've turned out completely different, and their drums would've fit just fine. i know that because we had a drummer right at the beginning and everything sounded fantastic before he had to move away.

i guess what im saying is, allow him to be part of the songwriting process. don't "come up with the main idea" by yourself and expect him to play exactly what you want, you should come up with the main idea together.. that way there's no comprimising the feeling because it will never have to change from what it was originally.

see what i mean?

I shouldn't have resorted to name calling. I apologize. The point remains that unless this guy is a glutton for servitude, you have to give him a reason to want to take orders from you. You can't expect him to subdue his artistic ego and succumb to your grand vision because you toured twenty years ago.

When a band member throws something into a song of mine that is not what I had in mind, one of three things happens:

1) It works, and the song is better for his/her contribution.

2) It doesn't work, and, after trying it, the band member recognizes that it doesn't work and drops it.

3) It doesn't work, and the band member doesn't care.

I try not to get musically involved with people who go for option 3 too often.

Bluestrat:

Thanks for the input.

Kingnome:

I am actually not treated "like stink" at all. I am basically "the leader" of my cover band. I handle mostly all the bookings, song choices, set arrangements, advertising, etc. I have a lot of experience, so it was logical that I handle those things. Trust me, I would love to pass a lot of the reponsiblities off, but noone else in the band can handle things as well. I know this, because I tried. And the proof is in the pudding. We have gone on to be playing some of the top venues in my state and making pretty good money in less than 2 years of the start of the band. The band certainly respects everything that I bring to the table.

They also respect my song writing skills. In fact, everyone else in the band has the same problem with the guitarists not playing what I ask him to play. All the others agree that we have to get the main part down, then it's openned up for suggestions from everyone.

I just don't want anybody to think my input is not accepted, because I am the drummer. Because, it's the exact opposite. I am really the only song writer in the band. Not because I choose to be, but because noone else has written anything yet.

Chicken Monkey:

Apology accepted.

But, somehow I knew you would bring up that I toured "20" years ago. That's why I stated that I have written new material, which is going over very well.

You keep using words like "taking orders" and "servitude". I am not a dictator at all. As I've said numerous times now, I welcome suggestions after I get my thoughts down.

I am not asking him to subdue his artistic ego. He's welcome to give input after my thoughts are down. I also said he's welcome to write his own material and that I would help him with it if he asked. I don't know how to say it any clearer.

I'll just end it at that.

Sal--any touring you've done is a feather in your cap, no matter when it went down, I was just trying to think from your guitarist's position. Directing the development of a song from behind the drumkit has got to be hard--it's not like YOU could play the guitar part you had in mind for the song, like I usually can when I'm leading a band through a song on guitar on bass. I can see why you'd want to hear it as you wrote it before you gave the band free rein. If the rest of the band agrees with you about this, I would say it's time to start thinking about canning the guy. Throw a rock out the window--you'll probably hit a rock guitarist, you know?

Chicken Monkey:

Thanks for the reponse. We're cool.

I did say in my second post that I can play guitar and keyboards fairly well.

I have actually shown my guitarist some of the things I want him to play, but he doesn't seem to be able to pick up what I play easily. Which doesn't make sense, because he's a very good guitar player. Definitely better than me.

Then, after struggling to play what I'm playing, maybe he gets frustrated and just starts playing something else. It's more of a timing issue when he tries to copy what I'm playing. I think he's the type of player that really needs to sit down and work on things before he can play them. Actually I'm starting to answer my own question. Maybe he's just not the type of player that can learn on the fly. I do recall that every time we start to talk about learning a new cover song, he says lets go home and work on it for the next practice instead of learning it right then and there.

Maybe that's the problem?

I actually write about 50% of my songs (the basics only) on either the guitar or the keyboard. The problem is then having someone play the guitar, so that I can play my drums at the same time and get the drum part down. I have to play the drums, because nobody else can play the drums.

(That reads pretty funny when you take it out of context! )

I have presented many songs to a few bands and I had always shown the others the hooks, or main riffs, or grooves and left everything else up to them.

My philosophy was... If I were doing this as a solo project, I'd want to hear very particular things, but in a band, I'd give them creative freedom.

I remember a time when a bassist/songwriter wrote a drum part that he HAD to have me play because he said it was critical to his song. I told him his critical drum beat was called "Heartache Tonight" by this minor musical footnote called "The Eagles". When the band stopped chuckling I played a simple, syncopated thing. Everyone but the bassist nodded, and we moved right along.

I say, let him play it his way, unless it is obviously not working.

and look forward the time when you can record it your way, for yourself.

then he's not such a good guitarist. timing is the root of good playing and being able to have consistent timing BETWEEN STYLES makes a player good, since rhythm is in general the only difference between styles of western music, anyway. if he rocks on simple rock stuff, but can't hang the minute the drummer starts shuffling sixteenths or doing anything that strays left of his comfort zone, it's a limitation and a lack of ability.

we tend to use pretty weak criteria to judge what a "good" guitarist really is. a guy who plays fast or covers one style can hide the fact that he truly sucks as an all-around musician for only so long. it sounds like your player (from your later posts) is starting to lose that mask. he's liking what he CAN do, instead of working on what he is asked to do; and i'd suspect that his liking it has a bit to do with an ability cap, ya think?

i know it seems i'm really at odds with what chicken monkey is saying, but i'm not. i'm a songwriter, but i'm also a session/live guitarist and i've been in (and currently am in - on some projects) situations where my input was nothing and i've felt like a MIDI tool more than an artist. i can empathize with this guy too, but the original concept in the writer's head HAS TO come out before the other artists in the group can be handed thier artistic license. it's the respect that all artists and creators deserve; established or not in their writing success.

all other ideas can be (and should be) explored, but you cannot step on the toes of the writer before HIS vision has been the first one tried. (especially when lack of ability is blocking it and pig-headed pride makes you say you like YOUR part better instead of admitting you have to hit the shed on THE WRITER'S original part) it's an injustice to the song and a subversive, limiting element in the band itself.

well, i guess we're up to my four cents now, huh? i'm definitely curious to see where this thread's going to wind up and sal, you are MORALLY OBLIGATED to (1) post yer damn tunes now and (2) keep us filled in on this situation! good luck, bro (if i were a local, i'd offer my services)

PS - despite being one myself, i tend to really {censored}ing hate lead guitarists! (ya picking up on that?) lol

Kingnome:

Yea, it definitely sounds funny!!!

Bluesway:

Your point is well taken that my guitarist is being unmasked a bit. But, he plays a lot of different styles well, as long as he has the time to learn/practice them. He just can't learn things on the fly. So, it definitely makes him inferior to other guitarists who can.

I will keep you up to date.

I have only recorded a real dirty version of one of my new originals on my home Korg D1600MKII when I first wrote it. I did it for copyright purposes. We now play it a little differently and certainly a lot cleaner than the one dirty take I recorded it on.

I can post the lyrics of that song and others, but it doesn't do much good, because you have no idea how the music goes.

We have a month break coming up (all of June), due to vacations, so I plan on using that time to get more songs recorded and written.

I will post them when they are done.

I would definitley take you up on your services if you were local. I think we could work well together.