Paiste's secret exposed!

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,809,581.WKU.&OS=PN/4,809,581&RS=PN/4,809,581

It's not so strange as you might have thought

very interesting- i'll have to have a proper read of it, but i'm sure there's tonnes of proprietary information not there that makes it what it is...

No big deal really. Any metalurgist could probably figure out the exact mix of metals used, and the methods of forming a cymbal are pretty well known.

The real trick, IMHO, is in the production. There are plenty of little 'secrets' that probably involve how hard the guy running the lathe pushes on his tools, the specific settings for various machines, etc.

Even the 'secret' Zildjian formula isn't secret...the guys at Sabian are from the Zildjian family, so you KNOW that they have the 'secret'.

The point is, you could easily replicate Zildjian or Paiste's manufacturing (turning raw metal into musical instruments), buy the necessary factories, machines, and hire expereinced people to run the stuff, and end up making a decent cymbal. It's not the technology that's holding back more companies from getting into the business, it's the simple fact that it's a VERY tough business to start. Even if you DID make decent cymbals, you'd still be fighting for market share against well-established brands.

Hey Steve,

Did you hear that the guy from Zildian named the company "Sabian" after his kids; something like:

"Sa"ra

"Bi" (Brian)

"An"n

Could'a been just a rumor though.

signed,

Master Splash Cymbal Percussionist

Yup, heard that too. The guy who founded the company's last name is actually Zildjian, too. The way I understand it, Sabian used to be Zildjian's canadian company ('Zildjian of Canada' as opposed to 'Zildjian USA'). Anyway, when Armand Zildjian (or whoever) died, there was basically a power struggle as to which of the family members would be taking over.

The guy who was running the show in Canada got the short end of the stick, cashed out, and started his own business.

Frankly, I think that's why the guy was successful early on. You could buy Sabians for a few bucks less than Zildjians, and most people realized that they were essentially the same cymbals...same metal content, same manufacturing methods, etc. I always used to get a kick out of people who said that they liked Sabians over Zildjians (or vice-versa) in those early days, as there really wasn't any difference in the product.

It's been a while now, and Sabian has kind of distanced itself from Zildjian...created their own new products, etc., so there's probably a much bigger difference between the companies nowadays. Still, you can probably find some VERY similar cymbals between the two.

Anyway, back to the original poster's patent info...even with step-by-step directions directly from the manufacturer, it's going to be really difficult for your average person to go out and make a decent cymbal in their garage. The big companies have a huge advantage in terms of keeping their costs low by playing at huge volume levels.

All of the 'secret' stuff is 99% marketing hype, IMHO.

Originally posted by CrackedDrumHead Hey Steve, Did you hear that the guy from Zildian named the company "Sabian" after his kids; something like: "Sa"ra "Bi" (Brian) "An"n Could'a been just a rumor though. signed, Master Splash Cymbal Percussionist

Yah. And Steve's right as far as I understand it...I also remember hearing that the guy who started Sabian was fed up with Zildjain's quality control and products, etc. He not only got the short end of the stick, but felt they could be building a better product for less so he went off and did it on his own. But that's just what I heard...

Could very well be. Sounds like a 'too many cooks in the kitchen' issue. The upshot is, the Zildjian guy in Canada was able to launch Sabian because he already had a factory going. Starting a company that large from scratch would be a nightmare. Lots of big expensive machinery, lots of people to train, etc. For Sabian, it was largely just a matter of the guy selling his stake in Zildjian, using the money to buy the Zildjian Canada operation, and changing the name on the front door of the factory.

That's the main reason I'm not starting a cymbal company...I don't want my kids to argue about who runs it after I kick the bucket. Nope, I'm just going to leave this world broke so they don't have anything to fight about.

I am a big fan of the Zildjian A sound. After somebody told me that story about the zildjian bros, I checked out Sabians AA line. They look and sound almost exactly the same and are much cheaper. If only I knew sooner I could have saved a bunch of cash.

Here's the real poop on Sabian.... originally makers of

Zilco cymbals and started to make the K's and then other

models of Zildjians. Located on the shores of the mighty

St.Johns river in Meductic , New Brunswick. The location

was chosen because it was (and is) Robert Zildjian's favourite

spot to fish at ( he has a large summer home on the factory

site). The U.S. and Canadian factories were run together

by Robert and Arman (RIP) who had a major falling out...

thus the birth of Sabian ( yes, named after Roberts

first 2 grandchildren Sarah and Brian).

Originally posted by WAKEFIELD Here's the real poop on Sabian.... originally makers of Zilco cymbals and started to make the K's and then other models of Zildjians. Located on the shores of the mighty St.Johns river in Meductic , New Brunswick. The location was chosen because it was (and is) Robert Zildjian's favourite spot to fish at ( he has a large summer home on the factory site). The U.S. and Canadian factories were run together by Robert and Arman (RIP) who had a major falling out... thus the birth of Sabian ( yes, named after Roberts first 2 grandchildren Sarah and Brian).

...there you go. Thanks for the facts. I've heard the story plenty of times, but never seem to be able to remember the details. Basically, it's safe to assume that Sabain and Zildjian knew all of each other's 'secrets' at the time of the split back in 1981. Of course, that was 23 years ago, so who knows what new 'secrets' have been developed.

Anyway, both companies make good cymbals, IMHO.