Spot the weakest link... in my recording chain?? Great example in here..

[2FLY]

I use a PC

 

Pentium III 667Mhz

2 x 20Gb Harddisks

 

I record into

 

Logic Audio Gold 4.1 (retail)

 

Vocals

 

Joemeek JM-47 mic

Joemeek VC3 v2 pre-amp

 

Through an analog cable from the pre-amp into the L input of my soundcard

 

Audiowerk 8 card

 

Midi:

 

E-mu Proteus2000 incl. Phatt Board (Turbo Phatt synth)

Roland JV2080

Akai S950

 

Everything goes back to my old trusted Yamaha MC1602 mixer.

 

The audio -> 2 tracks

All synths -> 2 tracks each

S950 -> 5 tracks

 

Here's 2 songs that were recorded like this:

 

Davey G - Break It Down

 

Davey G - How Bad Do You Want It?

 

Besides fixing the acoustics problems in my room I want to start tracking all my sounds into Logic and mixing everything in the box

 

One thing: a friend uses Creamware and is going crazy over how thin certain properly sounds end up sounding in Logic. He says 'Eventhough ur mixer is old etc. it gives a lot of bottom to your music..' He suggests I track from the mixer's XLR outs straight into the soundcard.

 

I wonder: what's the weakest link (besides me! think lack of proper acoustics and really good engineering skills).

 

 

Thanx

 

Oh.. and I have this TL-Audio C-5021 I never touch.. because plug-ins might probably be better (I got Waves + TC Electronic plug-ins).

 

So much advice to give now huh... be brutal

[philbo]

I'd say it's your ancient version of Logic. Records at 16 bits/44.1 KHz, right? You should look to upgrade to something that will do 24 bits at 44.1 KHz.

 

It's amazing how much more detail is preserved, plus you can record with peaks at around -12 dB and still not lose any sound quality, which makes it unnecessary to worry about red-lining the input while tracking. This one feature saves a LOT of time for me.

 

But you'll probably need more juice in your PC to upgrade the DAW program. You should be able to find a screamer 2 or 3 GHz PC with an 80 GB drive for under 500 bucks. (This is in reference to a Wintel PC. If you drive a Mac, I retract all the above, because I know nothing about them.)

[2FLY]

 

Originally posted by philbo I'd say it's your ancient version of Logic. Records at 16 bits/44.1 KHz, right? You should look to upgrade to something that will do 24 bits at 44.1 KHz.

 

 

Are you saying: consider something like Digidesign 002?

Or just another soundcard? Can you give me some ideas..? How bad is my Logic.. I mean a 24-bit w/ this Logic.. would that work. Or is it upgrade time?

 

 

It's amazing how much more detail is preserved, plus you can record with peaks at around -12 dB and still not lose any sound quality, which makes it unnecessary to worry about red-lining the input while tracking. This one feature saves a LOT of time for me.

 

 

Yea.. it does get TOO loud fast. So is the big difference headroom? Between 16 and 24 that is? Does pre-amp change anything with vocals/audio or running it throught the TL-Audio C-5021?

 

 

But you'll probably need more juice in your PC to upgrade the DAW program. You should be able to find a screamer 2 or 3 GHz PC with an 80 GB drive for under 500 bucks. (This is in reference to a Wintel PC. If you drive a Mac, I retract all the above, because I know nothing about them.)

 

 

Was looking at a Pentium 4 w/ 2 x 250 Gb hard disks and a whole lot of working memory... but that's pretty expensive. My homeboy is smart.. he's buying a 2nd hand G5 (single processor) for like 1 grand.. and Logic 7 Express... and already has the RME ADI-8 convertor. The Mac has a soundcard with Litepipe..

 

My eyes are open for the upgrade. Plan so far was: new PC, other soundcard (or something like Digidesign 002). I have been thinking about upgrading, I feel like 'might I get better quality with an upgrade in Logic versions..??'

 

Whatta ya think?

 

Thanx!

[Kiwiburger]

Your Audiowerks card is only 16 bits too isn't it?

 

The problem with Logic is that it is now exclusively for Apple users. If you want to stay with PC, I would highly recommend you ditch Logic, and consider Cubase SX or Sonar.

 

I would recommend that you take the mixer out of the loop - but I have tried to explain this to you before so I won't keep pushing that one.

 

On a limited budget, it's hard enough to get two high quality channels, which is why you have to ask yourself how many you actually need, and how much you can afford to compromise.

 

By high quality channel, I mean something like API/Neve/Avalon preamp into something like Apogee or Lucid converters.

 

Personally, I would rather have two high quality channels, and track the synths one at a time, rather than trying to run them simultaneously through inferior channels. With MIDI, repeatability is no problem, so you can just solo each part and record them one at a time for highest quality.

 

Or, if you have the money, have as many high quality channels as you can afford. But I have to live within my budget, and I don't like settling for second best, so my approach is to have two good channels and use them for practically everything.

 

You could consider soft synths - even freebies can be better quality than those older romplers. Especially for analog synth stuff - samples lack a lot flexibility. Soft samplers, especially for drums, solve a lot of timing and noise issues, since you can remove MIDI slop and A/D/A converter qualities issues from the equation.

[2FLY]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Your Audiowerks card is only 16 bits too isn't it? The problem with Logic is that it is now exclusively for Apple users. If you want to stay with PC, I would highly recommend you ditch Logic, and consider Cubase SX or Sonar. I would recommend that you take the mixer out of the loop - but I have tried to explain this to you before so I won't keep pushing that one. On a limited budget, it's hard enough to get two high quality channels, which is why you have to ask yourself how many you actually need, and how much you can afford to compromise. By high quality channel, I mean something like API/Neve/Avalon preamp into something like Apogee or Lucid converters. Personally, I would rather have two high quality channels, and track the synths one at a time, rather than trying to run them simultaneously through inferior channels. With MIDI, repeatability is no problem, so you can just solo each part and record them one at a time for highest quality. Or, if you have the money, have as many high quality channels as you can afford. But I have to live within my budget, and I don't like settling for second best, so my approach is to have two good channels and use them for practically everything. You could consider soft synths - even freebies can be better quality than those older romplers. Especially for analog synth stuff - samples lack a lot flexibility. Soft samplers, especially for drums, solve a lot of timing and noise issues, since you can remove MIDI slop and A/D/A converter qualities issues from the equation.

 

 

Rimmer - when u talk I listen man. I'm dead serious. Great advice. Conclusion: quality should be ur goal.

 

The reason why the mixer's still there. My friend is good at mixing etc. and he says 'damn that old analog mixer gives so much bottom and power to your (my) mixes'. He tracks everything, compresses a lot of things and really does his thing.. and my 'straight out of module' mixes + audio from Logic mixes have more power and are louder he says. And that that is because it's analog and if I track str8 from the XLR outs into my card the sound will probaby be fatter than when he tracks from RME ADI-8 converter into Creamware through litepipe.

 

OK. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF WHAT HE SAYS????

 

My ears are as open as they'll ever and the budget is $ 1,500.00.

 

I been thinking:

 

1) New powerful PC + 24-bit soundcard (Hammerfall) + buy A/D convertor and track through litepipe.

 

2) Buy 2nd hand built out Mac G4 dual or G5 single + Logic 7 + Firefix (like my friend is doing) and track through firewire

 

3) New PC + Digidesing 002 + A/D convertor

 

or

 

4) New PC and track through XLR of mixers

 

ONE THING: when I'll track for releaes I will rent a SSL strip or Neve strip for 2-3 days (my friend Napalm has KILLER connections huh) and track THROUGH that thing using whatever setup I have.. to get way more headroom and that pro-vibe.

 

Rimmer.. I'd like you to really reply to this and the same goes for all you experts. I WILL upgrade. But I have to be smart with my $$$ and also save some for acoustics (curtains + foam + board + speaker stands)

 

 

THANX GUYS!!

 

P.S. I'd love to get motivation per 'bad idea' or 'good idea'. Thanx y'all!!!

[GeoffonTour]

I got an acer laptop & edirol ua-1000, it's 10 in 10 out, usb 2.0, 24/96khz etc, does the job so far but I've had windows problems so I gotta reinstall.

Haven't done much recording yet due to a lack of an amp, a guitar & a mic and somewhere to record but I have access to em now so I will test it see if it copes with lots of audio at 96khz cause I'm not sure if it will tbh.

[Kiwiburger]

I'm not Rimmer ... anyway, when you have to make your money go a long way, you have to get the biggest bang for buck.

 

Nobody can really tell you what gear to get, because they are so many choices that aren't right or wrong, just personal choice.

 

You need to question your loyalty to Logic - because you will have to buy a Mac if you want to stay with them. This will not be a cheap option if you go that way.

 

If you go the Protools way (either Mac or PC) it isn't a cheap option either. Have you seen the prices they want for RTAS plugins? Daylight robbery. If you use VST plugins, you can get everything you need for free, and extremely high quality stuff like Voxengo & Kjaerhus is still very affordable and no stupid PACE/ilock madness.

 

In my opinion, the good DAWs these days all offer about the same, but the real big differences in sound quality come from the third party plugins. PC VST plugins have the biggest range, and there is a lot of excellent freeware that simply isn't available in other formats. In the interest of getting maximum bang for buck, it's hard to ignore PC VST plugins.

 

Also, I don't know if you've checked these out yet, but software synths and samplers are huge now, and I rate them equal or better than hardware stuff from the 1990's. Once again, the choice of stuff available for PC VST is staggering. You can get excellent results from carefully selected freeware synths, or reasonably priced commercial stuff.

 

I'm not suggesting you don't use your modules, but you might want to supplement them with soft synths, especially if you like analog synth sounds.

 

Have a look at www.kvraudio.com, and have a search of what is available. I have a collection of expensive sample libraries, good hardware keyboards, and expensive software. But often my favorite instruments and effects are freebies - you can't afford to be snobby. Whatever works for you is what works, and price has nothing to do with it.

 

So imo, you would be wise to consider a PC VST host - there are plenty to choose from at all price level from $0 upwards.

 

While there can be advantages in getting an identical rig to your mates, there can also be advantages in having something totally different. Your level of technical ability might be important here. If you constantly need help to keep your system going, it might be wise to get an identical rig.

 

Choice of interface is a hard one - the technology changes all the time. The USB2 or Firewire interfaces available now seem like the way to go.

 

I got a Lucid AD9624 converter, which I can use with any s/pdif interface, like a cheap Audiophile 2496. Since most of the time i'm only recording 1 or 2 tracks at a time, that gives me excellent quality - especially with my Neve Portico preamps. So it is possible, on a limited budget, to have a pair of very respectable channels for tracking.

 

If you decide that you need more simultaneous input channels, you might have to settle for less. But some of the newer Audio Interfaces offer a lot of preamps and headphone amps and would get the job done.

 

There's no real right or wrong - I would just encourage you to think seriously about your actual needs instead of just brand names and bling.

 

Sure, you can rent stuff if necessary. You might want to consider having at least one good channel for vocals - although if you get two good channels you can do dual mic stuff and track stereo keyboards.

[philbo]

Originally posted by 2FLY Are you saying: consider something like Digidesign 002? Or just another soundcard? Can you give me some ideas..? How bad is my Logic.. I mean a 24-bit w/ this Logic.. would that work. Or is it upgrade time? Yea.. it does get TOO loud fast. So is the big difference headroom? Between 16 and 24 that is? Does pre-amp change anything with vocals/audio or running it throught the TL-Audio C-5021? 16 bit - - Max dynamic range = 96 dB, ranging from -96 dBFS up to 0 dBFS, with anything below about -60 dB plowed full of nasty quantizing distortion (the quieter the signal, the worse this distortion gets, which is why you have to keep the signal peaks up close to zero so quiet parts (like reverb tails, fadeouts) don't get chewed up by the distortion. 24 bit -- Max dynamic range = 144 dB, ranging from -144 dBFS up to 0 dB. The quantizing noise WOULD start getting noticable at about -114 dBFS or so, except that that is just about the practical noise floor of the best audio electronics available right now. So quantizing noise is so low as to be nearly unmeasurable, and for sure is unnoticable. So in 24 bit there is no pressure to keep the peaks real close to zero, as in 16 bit.... It sounds just fine if the peaks don't ever break past -20 dB! Was looking at a Pentium 4 w/ 2 x 250 Gb hard disks and a whole lot of working memory... but that's pretty expensive. My homeboy is smart.. he's buying a 2nd hand G5 (single processor) for like 1 grand.. and Logic 7 Express... and already has the RME ADI-8 convertor. The Mac has a soundcard with Litepipe.. My eyes are open for the upgrade. Plan so far was: new PC, other soundcard (or something like Digidesign 002). I have been thinking about upgrading, I feel like 'might I get better quality with an upgrade in Logic versions..??' Whatta ya think? I gotta agree with the other posts on this -- Digidesign hardware and software is way overpriced, and so are Mac plugins. If you need it because to collaborate with commercial studios a lot, it MAY be worth it. Otherwise, I personally wouldn't ever consider it. If it were me, I'd be looking at a Wintel PC with a RME or possibly EMU audio interface, or maybe a Lynx 2-channel card if you want to go with mastering-quality converters. If you aren't running a full-time studio, you don't really need 500GB of hard drives - - 80 or 100 GB would be ample. For DAW software, I'd be looking at Sonar, Tracktion, Cubase or Samplitude for tracking, and Adobe Audition or Sound Forge for fine tweaking of individual tracks. The new Tracktion2 supports 24 bit at rates up to 192KHz, comes with about 100 plugins, and runs about $150 - - pretty hard to beat in terms of bang for the buck. (No, Mackie doesn't pay me to brag up their DAW; it's just what I use for all tracking work now, that's why I'm bringing it up.) Just another viewpoint to consider.... Thanx!