Members Robman2 Posted August 18, 2005 Members Share Posted August 18, 2005 Lyricist and composer here...day job? Sure in the business and that's cool. My few questions are... Do you who read this board really communicate about technique? Some here are dissapointed in the level of participation and the quality of that... Is this because the folks here are learning the craft as beginners or are webbies out for a cursory surf? Do you consider the craft and artform seperate from your ability to play an instrument? Are you able to edit and re-write, or do you feel a song is done, usually afte a few passes at form? Just curious.... Thanks Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted August 18, 2005 Members Share Posted August 18, 2005 well i'll try... i do the day job thing, but hopefully not for long, of course... as far as communicating about technique, my technique is all my own, and i don't say that in snobbery, i just can't sufficiently explain how i write... i can tell you why i write, but how just sort of escapes me... i would ask you 'how do i not?'... i think writing is personal and sometimes impossible to communicate... especially in the context of "how do i write a song?" that often gets asked in one form or another. interesting question regarding relation to playing an instrument... only thing i can really think that inspiration begat talent in my case, and not vice versa. its really really interesting that you ask the last question because as i'm in the final writing phase for a project i'll be recording soon, i find it nearly impossible to bust apart a song that i've previously considered 'done' in order to rewrite it, even if i'm not completely satisfied with the original result. I find it much easier to write new material... timely question for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deef Posted August 19, 2005 Members Share Posted August 19, 2005 Originally posted by Robman2 Moderator and posters please answer a few question... There's a moderator? Do you who read this board really communicate about technique? I think on this and most other songwriting forums there more posts requesting reviews of finished songs than posts outlining the process used to create that song. When you press many writers with questions like how and why (What was the inspiration, describe how you built the lyrics, where did the melody originate, why did you change the key here, where are you taking us in the bridge, etc), they will shrug and say "it just came to me". Many people with innate skills are not eloquent about them. That's unfortunate because I think an ideal songwriting forum would be less about the finished product (no matter how brilliant) than about how the creator brought it to fruition. Maybe every song posted should be accompanied by a detailed outline of its conception and birth. We know more about Beethoven's technique from the sketches he abandoned than from his completed works. Some here are dissapointed in the level of participation and the quality of that...Is this because the folks here are learning the craft as beginners or are webbies out for a cursory surf? I think not just beginners but also many experienced do-it-yourselfers lack a vocabulary to engage in a constructive dialog about technique. Songwriting can be self-taught by the imitation and deconstruction of existing songs. Rules are then "felt" rather than intellectualized. As an art form, songwriting also benefits from the inexpressible "muse". Codified technique can be seen as an affront to an individual's "channeling their soul" into music, rather than as a beneficial set of tools to help deliver that soul to an audience. I think a creator grows the moment he understands that his muse will not leave him just because he acquires practical knowledge. Do you consider the craft and artform seperate from your ability to play an instrument? Absolutely separate. I can't play everything I write. Are you able to edit and re-write, or do you feel a song is done, usually afte a few passes at form? Writing is re-writing. That is the way of art. Do you know how many times Munch painted "The Scream"? And there's that famous tale of Hemingway rewriting the last page of Farewell to Arms 39 times. "I couldn't get the words right". That's not to say art can't be created in a moment. But what preceded that moment? I may be wrong, but I think the Japanese painter Hokusai remarked after laying a single perfect stroke of ink on paper that, although it took a fraction of a second, the stroke had been thirty years coming. Deef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted August 19, 2005 Members Share Posted August 19, 2005 Deef, You make a very good point about us song writing students who don't know the vocabulary. I've taken guitar lessons for years and have read plenty of material on music theory, so I think I have a decent understanding of notes and chords and how they relate to each other, but that's not quite the same thing as song writing. Perhaps someone would be willing to start up a thread on the language of songwriting along with tips on theory, technique, etc. We could then get the moderator to make it a "sticky" where newbies on this forum can have a place to reference. I, for one, am sure I could learn a great deal from the rest of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Robman2 Posted August 19, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 19, 2005 Wow and thanks for the straight on and eloquence. Deef, great comments and all on point. The difficulty of positing fom Muse to paper...age old. Essentially, I found the MPN users on this thread version, fairly tepid and non informative. Relaizing that we all, are learning always, and the I"ve been there as well syndrome, in evolutionary terms as a writer has to be taken into account when folks who are learning, post up. As far as techniqques are concerned, the many books available are out there. Shiela Davis comes to mind and I'm sure tons of others could be referred. If someone wishes to start a "What's in a form" thread go for it. Thanks, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deef Posted August 19, 2005 Members Share Posted August 19, 2005 I think part of the process of learning songwriting is learning to articulate your ideas and feelings about it. The "let me know what you think" posts, while sincere, sort of sidetrack the issue. The creator is waiting for someone else to start talking about his work. Anyone undertaking a creative endeavor can benefit from diving into other creative endeavors as well. So if you write songs, take a drawing class. If you dance, study textile weaving. Sports can be considered a creative endeavor, if you approach it as such. The concepts and langauge that you learn in other creative pursuits are all translatable to songwriting, whether you are sculpting a chorus or stitching together a transition or racing for the finish. In other words, a vocabulary of "creativity" will allow you to express your ideas about songwriting, even if you do not know the difference between "dissonance" and "assonance" (what was it again? Dissonance sounds like diss and assonance sounds like ass? ). Another thought I had concerns what point of view a musician may take. These two goals are completely different: 1) I want to learn to write a song 2) I want to learn to be a songwriter Mind you, they are equally valid goals. But if a poster wants number #1 and is met with answers applying to #2, he can be frustrated. Same with the reverse. Deef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MikeLewisMusic Posted September 1, 2005 Members Share Posted September 1, 2005 To most here, songwriting is highly personal. Might as well ask about intimate sexual or spiritual details--can't really divulge without selling one's soul. I'll wax on about how I go about things, but it will be of little value to you--you're not me. ALL methods are valid! If you are looking for feedback on specific projects, there are probably better places to go than this forum. Submit your songs to producers and indie labels. But keep in mind the feedback will be commercial in quality. Are you a commercial songwriter? Most of us aren't. I can tell you successful songwriting formulas, etc., but these will only frustrate your creative process. Unless you want to make a living songwriting, YOU ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT THEM! If there is one thing I'd hope everyone here takes away from this forum, it is this: Songwriting is not about selling your songs. If that's what you are in it for, good for you, and good luck (it's a bastard of a market) but that's business, not art. The art of it is independent of commercial application, correct technique, majority acceptance, or the support of your cronies. Write your songs. Play them. Celebrate the individuality of them. Yours are different than mine, and that's a good thing. The world is enhanced by your songwriting, just its diversity alone. Take pride in who you are and whot you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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