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I've Assembled A Spreadsheet On Modes

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  • #16

    I've figured out some more stuff about modes. For example, while figuring out what scales make up modes of another scale, I found a pattern emerged.

    Using C Major, the modes of this scale can be identified like so:
    Dorian is based on b7 of Major scale = Bb Major
    Phrygian is b6 of Major scale = Ab Major
    Lydian is 5 of Major scale = G Major
    Mixo-lydian is 4 of Major scale = F Major
    Aeolian is b3 of Major scale = Eb Major
    Locrian is b2 of Major scale = Db Major


    I understand modes, but this confused the hell out of me.

    Care to explain?
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    • #17
      Originally posted by sevenroy


      I understand modes, but this confused the hell out of me.

      Care to explain?


      What I was saying is, if you take the Ionian mode of a scale, then flat the 7th note, you'll get the Major scale that makes up Dorian mode. For example, C Ionian's 2nd mode (Dorian) is based on Bb Major. If you flat the 6th note, you get Ab. Ab Major is the basis of the C Phrygian scale, and so on.

      Get it?

      If not, let me know and I'll try to explain it a different way.

      Also, notice that all the minor modes of a scale are based on flatted scale tones, and the Major modes (I, IV & V) are not.
      <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jazz Ad
        Mine's got degrees too.
        I think I can merge threads when we're over with discussin.



        Aaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!! Nooooooo!! It'll be lost forever in the bowels of that mystery forum!!!!































        <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
        <br />
        Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
        <br />
        <a href="http://dtibs.home.comcast.net" target="_blank">Check out my Mac OS X music software here!</a></div>

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        • #19
          Originally posted by WillPlay4food


          What I was saying is, if you take the Ionian mode of a scale, then flat the 7th note, you'll get the Major scale that makes up Dorian mode. For example, C Ionian's 2nd mode (Dorian) is based on Bb Major. If you flat the 6th note, you get Ab. Ab Major is the basis of the C Phrygian scale, and so on.

          Get it?

          If not, let me know and I'll try to explain it a different way.

          Also, notice that all the minor modes of a scale are based on flatted scale tones, and the Major modes (I, IV & V) are not.


          Ok, now I get it. I was thinking you were saying Bb was the basis for the Dorian mode of C major, which would be D Dorian.

          Sorry.
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          <br />
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          • #20
            Originally posted by snailplow
            [snippity-snip]
            There are only 12 notes and 7 modes in modern western music,and music theory is like math,in the fact that it always comes back around to itself,but on an "elevated" level.Sort of like a spiral staircase.............................confused yet?


            If you could explain your idea of the spiral staircase I would greatly appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like it's right there in front of my nose, waiting for me to grab it, but it's just not totally sinking in yet.
            <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
            <br />
            Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
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            • dodo2014
              dodo2014 commented
              Editing a comment
              very great If you could explain your idea of the spiral staircase I would greatly appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like it's right there in front of my nose

          • #21
            Here's another take on modes that helped me alot:
            Modes spreadsheet
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            • #22
              The spreadsheets are great but its a bit busy. Modes are actually very simple by design, but difficult to explain. All you are doing with modes is playing the same root scale but starting at different degrees. In Cmaj, the second degree is D (dorian) and you are still playing the Cmaj scale, but starting from D (DEFGABC). Same with the 6th degree (aeolian) ABCDEFG but a totally different sound to the progression. If you go through each scale degree following this simple concept, the modes will become apparent and open up a whole bunch of note choices that can add interesting options to your bass lines, especially if you are reading the chords from charted music or notation for the first attempt through an unfamiliar piece.

              Try this - works for any key:

              I Ionian major
              ii Dorian minor, but perfect 6th
              iii Phrygian minor, flat 2nd
              IV Lydian major, sharp 4th
              V Mixolydian major, flat (dominant) 7th
              vi Aeolian true minor
              vii Locrian diminished minor, flat 2nd and 5th
              VIII (I) Ionian octave

              Just keep playing the major scales in each key by each interval and you'll hear it. I suppose its intelligent to know the names, but not necessary to understanding the concept. It really is very simple.

              Comment


              • #23
                [QUOTE]Originally posted by WillPlay4food


                This has been very slow going (for me) because I can only play between 15 minutes and an hour each day (depending on the day) so I've been running up 2 scales per day where I play 3 notes per string and run up & down the strings. Then I move to the next note in the scale and run those notes up and down the strings. Here's a chart of what I mean:



                If you seriously only have a short time to practice each day, I'm not sure you're practicing the most beneficial stuff.

                Try learning each scale from tonic to octave--i.e. play the C major (ionian) scale from C up an octave to C. Learn the interval pattern on the fretboard. Now play the dorian scale from D to D and learn that pattern. Learn all the modal scales.

                After all, the most obvious application for modes as a bass player is to look at a chord and know what scale will fit over it. When you see a C7, D7, E7 etc., you know "ok a mixolydian scale will fit over an X7 chord, and I know the mixolydian pattern". Likewise, when you see a Xmaj7, you'll know you can play an Ionian scale.

                As you get more comfortable with the sounds and tonal characteristics of the modes, you might see a Amin7 and say, OK, I could play a dorian, phrygian, locrian, or aeolian scale over this chord, and choose the notes in you bassline, knowing they ill work, according to what would sound the best/coolest.

                Trying to find mathematical patterns in western music theory is certainly worthwhile, but as a basic way to make that theory applicable to actually making music, I'm not sure its all that helpful. Rote memorization of scale shapes and their relationships to different chords will probably serve you a lot better!

                ...my 2 cents anyway...

                Comment


                • #24
                  Originally posted by Smorgasboy


                  If you seriously only have a short time to practice each day, I'm not sure you're practicing the most beneficial stuff.

                  Try learning each scale from tonic to octave--i.e. play the C major (ionian) scale from C up an octave to C. Learn the interval pattern on the fretboard. Now play the dorian scale from D to D and learn that pattern. Learn all the modal scales.

                  After all, the most obvious application for modes as a bass player is to look at a chord and know what scale will fit over it. When you see a C7, D7, E7 etc., you know "ok a mixolydian scale will fit over an X7 chord, and I know the mixolydian pattern". Likewise, when you see a Xmaj7, you'll know you can play an Ionian scale.

                  As you get more comfortable with the sounds and tonal characteristics of the modes, you might see a Amin7 and say, OK, I could play a dorian, phrygian, locrian, or aeolian scale over this chord, and choose the notes in you bassline, knowing they ill work, according to what would sound the best/coolest.

                  Trying to find mathematical patterns in western music theory is certainly worthwhile, but as a basic way to make that theory applicable to actually making music, I'm not sure its all that helpful. Rote memorization of scale shapes and their relationships to different chords will probably serve you a lot better!

                  ...my 2 cents anyway...


                  Hey Willplay4Food,I was thinking this same thing at work all night,and I was going to post it for you to read,but Smorgasboy beat me to it,and did a fine job explaining it.
                  If you don't understand it,keep reading it in sections until you do.It's a heck of alot easier to learn the modes this way,instead of the way you're doing it.

                  Comment


                  • #25
                    snailplow & Smorgasboy,

                    I think you two are correct. I'll modify my practice routine to include practicing all the modes to get the patterns under my fingers.

                    Also I need to work on my ear so I know when I'm hearing a C7 vs. CMaj7 vs. Cm7b5 vs. Cmin7 so I know what mode to play in. I don't work with sheet music too much, I just try to play along with whatever songs I'm listening to.
                    <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
                    <br />
                    Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
                    <br />
                    <a href="http://dtibs.home.comcast.net" target="_blank">Check out my Mac OS X music software here!</a></div>

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                    • #26
                      Originally posted by WillPlay4food
                      snailplow & Smorgasboy,

                      I think you two are correct. I'll modify my practice routine to include practicing all the modes to get the patterns under my fingers.

                      Also I need to work on my ear so I know when I'm hearing a C7 vs. CMaj7 vs. Cm7b5 vs. Cmin7 so I know what mode to play in. I don't work with sheet music too much, I just try to play along with whatever songs I'm listening to.



                      Check this out.


                      http://www.playmusicfree.com/music_lessons/html/bass_lessons/bass_lessons.htm

                      Comment


                      • #27
                        Thanks for the link, snailplow!

                        I'm checking out the modal stuff now.
                        <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
                        <br />
                        Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
                        <br />
                        <a href="http://dtibs.home.comcast.net" target="_blank">Check out my Mac OS X music software here!</a></div>

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Jazz Ad,

                          Since this thread has fallen to page 5 (which is pretty much limbo for this place) maybe you should do that thread merge thingy into the Bass FAQ forum.

                          Thanks everyone for their input.
                          <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
                          <br />
                          Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
                          <br />
                          <a href="http://dtibs.home.comcast.net" target="_blank">Check out my Mac OS X music software here!</a></div>

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                          • #29
                            I've put up a webpage with all the major scales and their modes. I tried to make it so it's a 1 page printout.

                            Here's the linky.
                            <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1"><b>&quot;Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.&quot;</b> - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance</font><br />
                            <br />
                            Proud Member -- HCBF Musicman Owners Club (Bongo 4HH and 20th SR5 HS Maple)<br />
                            <br />
                            <a href="http://dtibs.home.comcast.net" target="_blank">Check out my Mac OS X music software here!</a></div>

                            Comment


                            • #30
                              Originally posted by WillPlay4food View Post
                              I just hope that at some point this all makes sense to me.
                              It will and, once it does, you will realize that it's just a hundred ways of looking at the same thing.

                              It seems to me that you are taking quite a large bite and attempting to digest it all at once.

                              Here's another way to look at it (BTW, I suggest you get yourself a piano of sorts to help you "see" scales and modes easily)

                              If you were to play a C Major scale but use triads instead of single notes you would still play only natural notes (no sharps or flats). This will result in the first chord (I) being C Major, the second chord (ii) being D minor, the third (iii) E minor, fourth (IV) F Major, fifth (V) G Major, sixth (vi) A minor and seventh (vii) B diminished.

                              In jazz the ii - V -I progression is very common. In the case of C Major that would be D minor - G - C and if we extend the chords a bit and play them as sevenths then it would be Dm7 - G7 - CMaj7

                              Santana uses the Dorian mode often and may play over a two chord progression such as Dm - G7. As the OP has pointed out, D Dorian uses the same notes as C Major but puts the tonal centre in a different place (D instead of C). Getting back to the ii - V - I jazz progression we can see that the Santana thing is like the ii - V part of the ii - V - I and the same notes would work in either case.


                              With all of that being said, my suggestion would be to study some of Santana's playing and see how he uses the Dorian mode effectively. You can the record a simple progression such as Am - D9 and see how playing all natural notes with the exception of the F being sharp to create interesting melodies in the key of A. You can start with the A pentatonic pattern which is a sub-set of the Dorian mode and look at the other notes that can be added.

                              If the second chord of the Am - D9 progression was Dm instead of D9 then the F# would become F natural and all the other notes, including the pentatonic pattern would remain the same but you would be playing in A Aeolian rather than A Dorian.

                              Once you get you musical head (as opposed to the analytical head) around the Dorian mode then move on to another mode. Perhaps someone on the forum could suggest something specific to work on.

                              It helps this approach considerably if one knows the location of all the notes on the guitar fingerboard. This is why I suggest some form of piano as a tool to help with learning other instruments.




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                              contentment is true wealth

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