do any bands make money?

Aside from cover bands and stuff, how do touring bands make any money? is it just a time thing?

for years people have told me that selling recordings isn't where bands make their money, it's in playing live. I don't see how that could be true. I talked to bands that were on small vanity labels, indie labels, etc... none of them make even enough money to break even being a band.

so I want to hear from anyone out there playing originals and is making money at it ---> was it time, luck or what?

Mine doesn't. :(

I think when people say that they are generally referring to bands signed to major labels.

-Steve-

If you can consistently draw 100-300 people you can survive...if you can do 300+ all the time you can make some good dough. Realistically an independent act has a tough time doing that many people in anywhere but their local/regional area.

I can say this. I'm in the game but I'm not really making any money. We're probably about breaking even at this point but we're still trying.

Like a previous post said, if you can draw even 100 people consistently you can make a little bit. The more people you can draw the more you will make. Most bigger bands make money on merchandise at shows, depending on whether you own your own merchandising rights. The big names do, a smaller band usually has to give a large portion of it up. But then you don't have to lay out the cash yourself which is sometimes a blessing.

If you're signed to a very small label there's no tour support or much advertising. You're on your own and the chances of making a respectable amount of money will rely on having large record sales.

Unless you can sell in the tens of thousands or better you will not make that much money on sales. If you go gold or platinum, now you're talking but only a very small percentage of bands reach that level.

musicians are like hookers, you can be a $20 street ho or a $1000 call girl. it is all in how you present yourself. i had to beg for $300 gigs in dives and got sick of it so i put together a little addmittedly hyped up promo pac and raised the price to $1000. suddenly i am in better places and treated with a degree of respect for a change. "this guy must be good he gets a grand a night"

Frank,

That's a great idea, simple enough to work. What kind of clubs did you start playing after that?

i play blues and have for over 30 years. did well in chicago for quite some time, made some bad decisions and choices in my personal life and was rendered broke and homeless for a few years. then i had several years of health troubles. i got my thing together and picked myself up and remembered what my life goals really are and that has been to make a modest living doing what i love. what i am starting to get now is places that have folks like coco montoya, papa chubby, lonnie brooks, etc. sometimes i get to open for these acts and sometimes i get the whole show. it is not as often as i would like but i am commited to hold firm on my fee. i am 52 and to play for 75-100 a man just does not get it anymore. i have friends who are really better players than me but they have careers other than music that sustain them and they will play for practically nothing which makes it hard on a man who is trying to go whole hog, so to speak. how long i can "get away" with this remains to be seen. i wear nice suits, won't allow drinking or smoking on stage, and go right from one tune into the next. there were times in the past i have been guilty of serious unprofessional bahavior. i just "assumed" because i can play a little that would be enough. this is a tough game and not for the faint of heart. it is about dreams but i have learned the hard way that dreams become real thru hard work, determination, self confidence, and an undying passion for what i love to do.

Great post.

Was it really that easy? Did you have to change your behavior towards clients, fancier clothing, expensive equipment etc. to appear to be that expensive?

I mean, today I charge a bit over the 1/2 at what you do, and I know guys who can barely strum a few chords who are getting twice as much. But often they are show-makers and have other strengths than me. I really don't care, but would like to charge twice as much as today.

Problem is I am a nice guy, terrible salesman, very honest, couldn't hype myself, much less lie. I am the the kind of guy who gives rebate before it's asked for....

However, when I go on stage I change into a show person, so I guess I could use my secret actor skills to be a better promotor and salesman. I assume you will have to change arena tho, can't just say "Sorry, I've doubled my price since last weekend. You know I went to a crossroad and sold my soul to the devil to be a killer guitarist (and salesman)"...

no it was not easy. i stated in my post that i was guilty of serious unprofessional behavior, suffered personal loss, and health problems. to be more blunt i was a drunk, a dope addict, and a womanizer with a smart mouth and a chronic bad attitude. my wife died and i was crazy for a few years. i blew some "once in a lifetime" deals because of my "behavior". i held on to the dope, etc. as long as i could because i did not want to face reality. reality finally jumped up and kicked my cocky little ass but good. strange as this may sound, i now look at my gigs like going to church. i try to look my best, be on my best behavior, and put every ounce of energy i can muster into my playing. i look at any gig as the best one of my life and play like it is my last because that day will come soon enough. there is more to it than a shave, a haircut, and a new suit. would you be allowed to show up at your "job" drunk, high, harass the women, be a smart ass, etc.? for some reason this "behavior" is somewhat tollerated in the "music business" maybe because of the rediculous notion that we are "talented artists" who are exempt from the rules of conduct of the general population. put as simply as i can "it is not so much what you do, but how you do it" a well known british guitar player once said "it's in the way that you use it". as to the "nice guy" and lack of self confidence i can only say that if you don't believe in yourself then why should anyone else? this is not to be confused with being arrogant, or untruthful. quite the contrary, it is having a clear understanding of who and what you really are and being comfortable with it.

I hear what you're saying brother. It's funny(and Not) how the years teach you. Congratulations.......

Not that you were asking me(or that this really even applies to you) but this paragraph is a major factor for why many cannot make it in this business. To many guys get hung up on "how good they play" and not how well they entertain. If you look at the players that really reach the icon level in ALL genre's of music it is the entertainers that get to make the dough. Sure you have the few here or there that use the "withdrawn artist" style that do make it but by and large this is not the norm.

Here is a test for you to try next time you play. When you are playing a song is the majority of the crowd talking and/or watching tv? If they are you need to change you presentation somehow. First off dress well....means you care...or at least have the band dress thematically(you know all classy, all thuggish, all biker...whatever). Maybe throw in a couple VERY POPULAR(so overplayed YOU hate them)cover tunes from your genre of music to pick up crowd interest at the onset, then mix in your own after they start warming up. If you have a crowd of 10 make sure that ten has the time of their lives. So many bands go through the motions if the crowd isn't there. 10 happy people becomes 20, then 40, then 80, then 160, then 320. It CAN take as little as THREE SHOWS to get your band up to being worth the $1000 to 3000 you are looking for. After shows go out and mingle. Thank EVERY person you can catch for coming out. It IS that important. You need a group of people that come out because they feel a part of your music. They go around telling people they "know" you because you shook their hand. Great advertising...and free.

The suggestion of just upping your price is a great one. It works in other businesses why not music. To do so means be prepared to take a cut in jobs at first. Especially if you are not drawing people. YOU MUST stick to your price however and make sure you don't bend. You also need to be worth it. Charge a guy a grand for a show and don't deliver.......you'll NEVER be back. You need to get your band to the point where you never draw less than a hundred people....... 200-300 is better before you will be taken seriously. If you are doing this already a "raise in price" is long overdue, but be prepared to be scoffed at by owners/promoters who have been underpaying you for years.

excellent acesclone! speaking to the crowd on a personal level is important. i play for an hour then take a 30 min. "break" and talk to everyone about "the sound" they like this because suddenly you have involved them in "your show" not only that but often they have good suggestions. LOOK at them when you are playing DO NOT stare at the floor or your guitar neck. be sure you talk to the entire staff, these people have memories like elephants. they see a lot of bands come and go so their opinion is crucial. they talk to customers every day about who is doing what. this works better than all the flyers and promo packs you can pass out, it is free and generally the truth. the owners or the people who hire you are usually not around so they get their feedback from the staff. they see so many ass holes in their jobs that when someone from the band is polite and serious they are receptive. if you want to make money doing anything then it becomes a business, YOUR business. i you want to "own your own business" then you can. you have a "product" you believe in , now go sell it. the work never ends. every little bit of success should inspire you to work even harder. when you do hit the stage you are not "working" you are "playing" that is why it is commonly known as "playing" you have done the work, now you can play. it's funny, i hear people say they wish they could be in a band so they won't have to work.

Very impressive posts guys! Lots of insight and wisdom being shared here.

No question one thing that really peeves me is when I go to see a band and it is obvious they are simply going through the motions, taking whatever talent they may have for granted. I'm a born ham and try to emote like crazy even if there's only 5 people in the room. Has lead to a lot of other opportunities and good buzz in general.

This is my first visit to this forum (usually over in Acoustic or Live Sound), and I think I'll be back much more often!

making money, at least in my case, involves investing the time (almost all of it), taking chances, making sacrifices. We all had decent day jobs, but we quit them to go on the road, taking a hit financially. We make less than we did at our day jobs, but after putting in the greater effort, we are seeing a greater following, and receiving lots of hype, and making more money. It's still not enough to make a living off of, but it is growing fairly steadily. When we toured through the south for the first time, I noticed that the greatest thing lacking was promo. If you're gonna play somewhere, it doesn't make you money if you play your ass off and nobody knows that you're performing! you gotta let people know where you're playing, when, and where they can see you again. We're still figuring out a lot of this as we go, but like I said, it's growing. Good luck! www.dnove.com

Promo is important, but how can I assure the bar owner have put up lot's of posters in good time? Besides talking in the phone? I can't drive 1000 miles to check....

Would I write something on my poster besides artist name? I know a guy have"Norways best piano entertainer" on his. Firstly it's a lie, then he is a one-man-band, not a piano man, as he use backing.

Should I lie as well? Could I write "Norwegians greatest guitarist and singer", so that people are disappointed when they leave? I know I was very disappointed about the so called "piano man"....

I always mingle with the crowd. Sometimes I talk music, but I feel I'm self-centered focusing on me all the time. Of course I ask what they like, but I feel it's somehow directed at me as well.

As of entertain vs play: I am not so caught up in how well I play, only when I practice. At the gig I set my self free and give what I can, playing lot's of songs which are popular and I like. I talk to the audience, but I don't try to behave in a way that is unatural for me. The worst thing I see is musicans trying to be stand-ups, and they don't know how to tell a joke. So what does it really mean to entertain? Should I try to study comedians? Sometimes I start to play a song and everyone sings the first verse. However, they can't the whole song, so eventually they start talking to each other. Should I be ashamed that I can't keep their focus 100% of the time? I play mostly bars/pubs, people often go there to talk, drink beer and hear music. Should I feel bad if they continue to talk and drink beer at the same time as they listen to me? What if they order pizza and start to eat as well?

My act is a cover act, type bread and butter. I play for ordinary people at a place where they can fell familiar and comfortable. I don't want to make them dress up for a consert and shut up. I's not a standup show where they are supposed to listen to jokes all night. At my gigs, some people dance, some sing along, some listen, some drink, some talk. And everybody does more then one thing at the same time.

Is that bad?

Man.what a can of worms.It is tough out there today.Average pay world wide is $50-$75 a man."I did an online poll last year to get those numbers"..That said ,you blow a speaker,or couple of lights,have a flat,or have to drive over 100 miles,your screwed.Most band I know that are making money,promote the hell out of themselves.They sell T shirts,panties,CD's,anything with their name on it.Most of them have found cheap sponsors,like Miller beer,or Local Radio stations,etc.None of them hang out where they play.When they show up to play,they are not dressed like the road crew.As corny as it sounds you need a gimmick.Something that sets you apart visually..If you can get the females to show up,the males will follow.Not the other way around.Talk to the people that come see you,have mailing lists,keep everything updated.Practice,and keep the fire going.If your on stage playing and don't feel well,or make a mistake,or have a technical problem,keep it to yourself.If you want to be important and make money,you have to act important and like you are making money.Don't be arrogant.Be humble,but firm.Don't beg but be presistant.Last thing I can think of for now would be.Check out your competition..But don't clone them.Good luck,Keith

Frank, where in central Il are you playing? I live in Jacksonville and work in Springfield.

Jerry

Most important factor I've put to personal use...make yourself appear bigger than you are. In doing this, of the 4 shows my band has played (we just started writing together earlier this year) we've opened for two platinum selling bands, one international cult status band, and...well, the other was just a local gig for fun.

Anyway, make yourself out to be the "big {censored}" and people treat you like a rockstar. Just remember not to get an ego, humility and kindness coupled with strong-arm business tactics will get you quite a long way.

I would guess the idea then is its not really how successful as you are but how successful others perceive you to be that counts. At least in the context of this discussion.

No matter how much sucess you feel inside, if no one shares your joy, you are by definition not succesful.