So anyway, DJs and Karaoke seemed to kill the live band scene ........

..... in a lot of places .........

Yeah, THANKS A LOT !!!!!

:mad:

:mad:

This forum is a troll free zone. Thank you for your co-operation.

V.

{censored} off dickhead

I was stating a fact ......... Do you have proof otherwise ?

DJing didn't take away your audience, your audience took themselves away. Nobody's forcing these people to do anything.

But anyway, live bands are doing just fine where I live. But only the good ones.

the bands,good and crappy are not doing well anywhere. You young whippersnappers dont know nuthin`.

I remember when100 percent of money in my town for weekennd entertainment went to musicians. Then the djs started in the 70s but they were nothing like 5 percent. It got worse and worse . Then kareokie.. Then scab bands playing for next to nothing . Now its like 95 percent goes to djs and kjs. Kids dont know what music is supposed to sound like. I doubt if you do. You are brainwashed into thinking RECORDINGS OF MUSIC are music. They are not. Specially the production values of whats going on now. Dont you think? I talk to the wind.

I like going to see live music. I like playing live with musicians. And most of the musicians I know are doing just as good as they ever were, which is barely getting by but happy to playing for a living.

I definately don't go to see some "DJ" play other peoples music (er, uh, recordings) on the weekends. For me, there's no point, if I want to hear today's top 10 bull{censored} club hits I might as well just listen to the radio, but that's just me. Other people like to go out and hear music they are familiar with and dance I guess. Its kind of weak, but that's what your average person wants. Back in the day, DJs actually educated their audiences to music that they might not be familiar with. Now most DJs just play what the masses want to hear. The only "DJs" I go to see live are scratch DJs who aren't really anything like the DJs you're thinking of. They're more like a live band, making their own compositions, often alongside traditional musicians. And there's usually like 50 people at the show who are super-supportive and the other 5 million people in the area are out listening to some no-talent hack play popular records you can hear on the radio. I agree it sucks that people are stupid, but that's the way the world works. People go to the places that offer them what they want. I'm not going to blame the people who offer it. {censored}, people used to eat a lot more hotdogs back in the day too, and you can't blame the mexi-wrap providers because more people want that now.

But all this aside, you know what, I do what I do regardless, because because I love it. If somebody wants to pay me to do my thing then cool, but I'm not stopping because I don't get paid or because some other guy is getting paid $1000 a night to throw a foam party and press buttons.

Its nice to talk to a dj where we are at least in semi-agreement.

I do remember when musicians got paid the same as other decent paying occupations like a carpeneter . We got paid the same per hour.Its not half that now.The wages for bands have been frozen since the 80s.Also you could get 2 nights a week without trying. If you put forth an effort you could play 3 4 nights in a 50 mile radius. My hometown has one place that hires bands ,one.It used to be EVERY bar and any bar would hire a band,simply because a band meant more money. That has changed,dramatically. You used to do the barowners a favor by playing there.Now they do you the favor.

Greetings Manipulate,

Interesting post.

The DJs you describe in the first part of your quote are basically the "hired help" type of mobile entertainment someone would contract for a wedding or private party. That's basically a no-brainer, and yes, they mostly push buttons because they are told what to play and when to play it.

The next group of DJs you describe are basically those you would find at the local bar or night spot of choice on Friday's & Saturday's who actually play what you already hear on the radio.

Aside from the scratch battle DJs (which I used to do back in the 80's), the other breed of DJ you describe from "back in the day" who educated their crowd to the music they wouldn't hear from the mainstream is what you call a true club DJ; which is what I am and what I've been doing for years.

Names of legendary DJs such as Larry Levan, Frankie Knuckles, Danny Tenaglia, Armand Van Helden, David Mancuso, Todd Terry, David Morales, Junior Sanchez, Doc Martin, Merlin Bobb, John Robinson, Louie Vega, Timmy Regisford, Ruben Toro, Sting International, Shep Pettibone, Ron Hardy, & Louie "Lou" Gorbea are examples of the DJs you describe from "back in the day" because they are true club DJs who brought out the music you would only hear in the club.

The only exception to the rule that ever existed to this day was Frankie Crocker; who while as the main DJ personality on WBLS in NY, used to not only break the rules, but create his own protocol because he was the only DJ who would go against the grain to play the absolute best music that you would never hear on the airwaves....

....much to the chargrin of his superiors.

In the same way that club DJs would educate their crowd in the clubs (Paradise Garage, Club Zanzibar, Red Zone, Gothams, The Loft, etc...), Frankie Crocker did the same on the radio; as opposed to "following the playlist" & "pushing buttons".

The point that I was trying to make to Pilk is that not all DJs push buttons or play with toys. That might apply to the weekend wedding DJ or to the Friday night bar DJ, but not all DJs are alike.

Many of us work hard and put the time & energy as musicians do to perform. It's not about just playing one pre-recorded song after another like a human jukebox until it's last call. When I play in NY, I normally play as early as 8pm until 6am the following morning on the mix non-stop until the sun comes up.

That's how club DJs do it, which is exactly what I am.

Sadly, the "shrinking" dilemma that Pilk describes also applies to the club DJ as well.

In the same way that the venues are slowly fading for band entertainment in his town, the venues for the club DJ have faded as well; even in NY.

Back in the day, you could close your eyes and have a dozen dance clubs to go to. Today you're lucky if you find 2-3 that are worth your time. As a result, DJs (like musicians) have no other alternative than but to create their own venues (like Paul Van Dyk or Tiesto), even if it means to span the globe...which many club DJs have started doing.

And the sad thing about this is that all music suffers because of it. In the 60s and 70s, when you cut a record, the band had been playing gigs for months or years. When they went to record, they did the song several times and took the best take. Musicians had to be on point to do that! Now its like the bands go into the studio and make the record, which is all cut up and put back together, and THEN, if they're lucky, they go play it live a bunch of times to promote the record. So its not uncommon to buy a record that you like, and when you go see the band they suck. Its no wonder people would rather hear the record than the live band.

Maybe instead of one craft blaming another for what's happening in the bars and clubs, we should consider that it's mostly just the economy.

People simply don't have the expendable income these days. The bars don't have the income they used to have. People can't only afford to go as often, or pay cover-charge, or pay an extra 50cents for each beer... so the bar simply has to have less-expensive entertainment to stay alive, and I'll tell ya, at least around here, bars are struggling really bad.

all very correct.

there was more diversity of music in clubs before. you could hear range from disco, rock, hip hop, latin hip hop, synthpop, or some new experimental style of song introduced by the open minded DJ all in one club. There were less divisions between dancing to the styles of music. When you danced at the club, you could would be prepared to dance to anything.

But now its all categorized into these dull rigid categories. you have the Drum&Bass club and everyone goes there for that, and the house club everyone goes there for that, the trance club, progessive house club, 70s soul club, breakbeats club, disco retro club, blah blah blah etc... And they play the same single genre of music all night. Forced to dance in the boring prison of one genre all the time. Likewise your dancing skills get pigonholed and you cant expand your dancing abilities either, so that too becomes limited.

And nowadays it seems like there are now rigid rules of what a proper "electronica" song, proper "D&B", proper "south coast, north coast, east, west, NW, SE, XYZ, ABC, 123 or whatever "hip hop" song, proper "crump" song, should sound like. Too many unnessary rigid expectations of what a style "should be" or "shouldnt be". and so on. But since when are there supposed to ever be rules and rigid expectations in artistic expression? You should just do whatever the heck you do. Its supposed to be about freely expressing. Go ahead and bang pots and play an electric accordion, ocarina or live ukelele in your next "hip hop" song if you want.

All this rigidity that happened must be from the massive commercialization, which focusses on the appeal of a single genre/style, thereby concentrates exclusively on it, develops it, promotes it and markets it to a specific crowd, or mabe even tries to create a "crowd" that will buy the "product", to make as much money as they can.

Thats why you end up with the very idea of an "house crowd" that will not be interested in "ambient scene", or "electronic crowd" that will not be interested in "hip hop scene", and vice versa.

Too bad for these traps that result in unnessary self inflicted limitations.

although i agree with you, the live scratch djs, especially when they mix/jam with a live musician, are a breath of fresh air.. now theres a great opportunity to break barriers and allow the styles to flow into each other.

I have a day job unrelated to music; I'm not a "real" DJ/KJ, I'm like a "hobbiest", I guess... a half-azzed SR that DJ/KJs "on the side", so I'm not an expert like you guys, but I'd like to add.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, like it's the producers who sway the public. Actually, what the public wants is what the producers produce.

People don't go out to get educated, they go out to dance, and that's pretty-much it. If they like hiphop, then that's where they'll go, and if I like hard rock, why would I want to ALSO hear hiphop or rap or trans... etc.

We're not limited, cause we can just go to the next club that's playing something else. I'm not getting led around by the nose by the music industry.

Correct me if I'm clueless, but how many types of music can you "scratch" to? If one was playing a variety of music, how in the hell are you going to "beat match" all that?

Just my humble thoughts

Originally posted by Mark G. Hinge Correct me if I'm clueless, but how many types of music can you "scratch" to? If one was playing a variety of music, how in the hell are you going to "beat match" all that? Just my humble thoughts

I've heard and done some in hip-hop, house, breakbeats, drum'n'bass, some progressive, acid jazz, trip hop, happy hardcore among others. Scratching, like electronic music, is a highly versatile form of expression. One can use subtle baby scratches with tap delay and/or reverb or all out crabs and juggles for fierce tracks. It's all subjective.

As for playing a range of BPM within a set: master tempo, mixing double time or half time, deft segues, 45ing a 33 rpm record, and even 3/4 time beatmatching are a few methods people use. I've been known to range from about 65 to 190 bpm in a 5 hour set. For some DJs, that's a necessary attribute not a quirky tendency.

V.

Originally posted by gruvjack I've heard and done some in hip-hop, house, breakbeats, drum'n'bass, some progressive, acid jazz, trip hop, happy hardcore among others. Scratching, like electronic music, is a highly versatile form of expression. One can use subtle baby scratches with tap delay and/or reverb or all out crabs and juggles for fierce tracks. It's all subjective. As for playing a range of BPM within a set: master tempo, mixing double time or half time, deft segues, 45ing a 33 rpm record, and even 3/4 time beatmatching are a few methods people use. I've been known to range from about 65 to 190 bpm in a 5 hour set. For some DJs, that's a necessary attribute not a quirky tendency. V.

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I guess that answers the question...

I guess that's over my head, as mostly I hear mostly rock, country, oldies, motown... but I bet you've got some tricks for that stuff too.

I think I'm just gonna shuddap for a while...

Originally posted by Mark G. Hinge I have a day job unrelated to music; I'm not a "real" DJ/KJ, I'm like a "hobbiest", I guess... a half-azzed SR that DJ/KJs "on the side", so I'm not an expert like you guys, but I'd like to add. I think you're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, like it's the producers who sway the public. Actually, what the public wants is what the producers produce. People don't go out to get educated, they go out to dance, and that's pretty-much it. If they like hiphop, then that's where they'll go, and if I like hard rock, why would I want to ALSO hear hiphop or rap or trans... etc. We're not limited, cause we can just go to the next club that's playing something else. I'm not getting led around by the nose by the music industry. Correct me if I'm clueless, but how many types of music can you "scratch" to? If one was playing a variety of music, how in the hell are you going to "beat match" all that? Just my humble thoughts

You can scratch over anything, country, rock, blues, R&B, rap, punk, you name it. One of the reasons scratching is so versitile is because you can scratch any sound that appears on a record. You can scratch a cymbol to to make a percussive sound, or you can scratch piano notes to make a melodic sound. Moreover, scratching is more than just some "wicky wicky" bull{censored}. There's hundreds of different scratch technics. Some of them sound very "scratch like" but some of them are much more subtle. You can scratch a guitar sample and run it through a wah wah effect and most people would never even know the sound is made by scratching.

Also, you can make whole songs out of scratching (ie take drums from one record and scratch them to make drums, take the bass from another record and scratch it to make your bass line, take piano from another record, and so on until you create an entirely new composition that's made from scratching) So, you're not scrathing "to" the music, you are actually creating the music by scratching and manipulating the records. This is often done by having several djs all play the different sounds at once, live like a band (one DJ scratches drums, one DJ scratches bass, etc.) or you can just have one DJ who uses a multitrack to record the parts seperately and then put them all together to make the song in the studio.

Here's and example of scratch music, if you listen close you can hear the scratch manipulations in thereListen That one's kind of subtle. But here's a song made from scratch where its more obvious that everything is made from scratching.Listen

So, you can make a soul song that's made entirely out of manipulating sounds from soul records or you can even make a soul song thats made from sounds off of country records. Basically, you can take the sounds from any records and scratch and rearrange them to make any kind of song you want.

The main point is that you can scratch over/to prerecorded music, or you can use scratching to create entirely new compositions where the scratching IS the music.

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As far as mixing, you can mix pretty much anything with anything else. I used to mix all types of crazy {censored} together on my radio show. You can mix country with rock, or rock with rap. This is different from scratching because you're just letting the records play and combining them rather than manipulating them with scratching. There really are no rules or limits as to what you can mix together. If it sounds good, its good. That's actually how hip hop started. When hip hop DJs first started out, there was no such thing as "rap" or "hip hop" records. Hip hop came out of taking old records of all kinds and puthing them together to make something new.

For example, here's a Bob Jame's Jazz record. Mardi Gras Rap and hip hop wasn't around when this record was put out.

Now here's what Run DMC did with it

Peter Piper They basically just took the Bob James bells, looped them, and added heavy drums.

This is the most primitive type of sampling/mixing, but its good to get the point accross. Mixing different genres of music is how hip hop came about.

Here's classical Handsome Boy Modeling School

Country (the sample is actually from a funk band but its a country sound)

Potholes

All those are examples of hip hop producers mixing different genres of music together. Again those are all very simple examples for the purpose of illustrating the complex.

Here's something a little more complex. This is made out of scratching all different genres of records (80s, world music, etc) to make an electro song.

Emregency

Here's a slide show to more music made entirely out of scratching. There's a good 5 or 6 records used to make this song.

http://www.soundincolor.com/colorcompound/ruckerbooklet/Page1.htm

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test

here

Oiks!