Jump to content

Singing with headphones on; advuce please.


Bobby1Note

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Hi folks, I need a lil' help please.

 

We're a 4 piece band, looking to record our practice sessions. The sole reason for recording these sessions, is for capturing improvisations that frequently occur, and using those recordings as a reference to further develop the improvs'. We are not looking to make a serious recording here, but we'd also like the ability to tweek individual tracks slightly.

 

We jam in an L-shaped 36' x 32' room, and have a full acoustic drumkit, electric bass and guitar, as well as an acoustic-electric guitar. We'll be mic'ing the drumkit, and all instruments and vox will be sent direct to the board.

 

We're looking to somewhat reduce "bleed" from the guitars, into the vocal mics. We're not concerned about bleed from the drums.

 

I'm going to try putting headphones on everyone, and I'm torn over the choice of open-backed, semi-open backed, or closed-back headphones. I'm fully aware that the more open the headphone, the more vocal bleed we'll have into the mics. My main concern is this; will a closed-back headphone create the impression that you're singing with your fingers in your ears? (voice resonating in your skull?) Personally, I find this to be the case with closed-back designs. What has been your experience in a "live" type of setting?

 

I'm about to order four pairs of headphones, so this is important to me. I wanna make sure the guys are happy with the results. If I go with closed-back, I'll probably go with the HD280 Pro's. If I go semi-opened back, I'm thinking about the AKG K-240s.

 

I've also thought about trying the HD280 Pro's, with a piece of rolled-up gauze between the back of the ear-cushion, and my skull. The thinking being that very little sound would leak forward into the vocal mic, yet it would create a bit of a port at the back of the ear-cup, relieving that "sealed" impression.

 

What say you?

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

IMO the closed backs have always sounded better. My old band sometimes tracked "live" in the studio and I never liked the open back design, even the trusty old AKG K240's. I have a set of the HD280's and these are killer headphones. If it were me, I'd go with those, the sound reproduction is great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I always found the open-backs to sound muffled, plus I usually had to crank mine just to be able to hear...don't know if the output on the AKG's were lower or what?

Plus I didn't like the amount of bleed I got with them. The Sennheiser's will give you that kind of disconnected feeling, but soundwise, if you've got a good mix going, you can hear every nuance. They are very clear and you can run them pretty loud without distortion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

The sole reason for recording these sessions, is for capturing improvisations that frequently occur, and using those recordings as a reference to further develop the improvs'. We are not looking to make a serious recording here

 

 

If all you are doing is capturing musical ideas then I wouldn't use headphones. Headphones might be cumbersome, inhibit spontaneous creation and get in the way of what you are trying to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

If all you are doing is capturing musical ideas then I wouldn't use headphones. Headphones might be cumbersome, inhibit spontaneous creation and get in the way of what you are trying to do.

 

 

This is what we have been doing to date. We've been using a PA speaker (Yorkville NX55p) as a vocal monitor, and the bass and guitar amps are not running through the PA. Sounds great, and of course, we're free to converse. Recording to a Zoom H2 has also worked out reasonably well, for saving the ideas. We'd just like to take it up a notch, by having the ability to slightly edit the recordings (Example; raise or lower the level of one of the instruments, or tweek a vocal, etc) This of course, means mic'ing everything, and running everything thru the mixer. If we go that far, then it may also be worthwhile to monitor individually (headphones), than running through the PA and recording to the H2, simply because we can't edit individual tracks on the H2.

 

Keep in mind that when I say "edit", I'm only talking about slight increases/decreases in level, on one or two channels. We only get together every couple of weeks (we live far apart), so editing the recordings between sessions, can be a time-saver when we do get together. We wouldn't have to start from scratch, and experiment with levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm with YeahDoIt.

 

You are describing setting up a full blown recording setup for rehearsals. The extra time you take to get this set up and the $ you spend may not be well placed. And it will definitely inhibit rehearsals and creativity IMHO.

 

I would keep using the H2. Is the extra expense really worth adjusting the level of one or two instruments?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

I'm with YeahDoIt.


You are describing setting up a full blown recording setup for rehearsals. The extra time you take to get this set up and the $ you spend may not be well placed. And it will definitely inhibit rehearsals and creativity IMHO.


I would keep using the H2. Is the extra expense really worth adjusting the level of one or two instruments?

 

 

We already have the full-blown recording gear; 16 direct outs on the MixWiz, an Alesis HD24XR, iMac w/ Logic Studio, and roughly 20 mics, etc. The problem is not budget related, but rather, one of controlling room volume. We're currently monitoring with a single Yorkville NX55p. Using headphones would eliminate the speaker from the room, and reduce P/A system bleed into the vocal mics. We'd still have drum bleed though. It's unavoidable with our current set-up, but we'll eventually deal with that as well.

 

I already have a Rane 6-channel headphone amp, and a set of HD280 Pro's. I've been offered the HD280 Pro's, or the AKG K-240s at $90./pair. If I stick with closed-back, I only need three more sets. Not a big deal either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Hey Bobby,

 

My band's setup is similar to yours except we have a "fuller" PA system.

 

We do all of our recordings live off the floor - even our actual, final recordings, let alone our musical ideas.

 

If you are solely adjusting levels, the issue of mic bleed becomes even less significant than it already is. It is completely unnoticeable.

 

We tried recording with headphones once, and none of us really liked it. I would suggest sticking to how you are used to playing and rehearsing... I really do think that headphones would inhibit the spontaneity of your improv jams. Just run some direct outs from each channel strip on your mixer into your audio interface, and hit record and you're set. I really wouldn't do it any other way seeing as how you are not even recording a final draft. Your worries about room bleed are really insignificant considering the circumstances of the use of your recordings.

 

Good luck!

Jesse

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Hey Bobby,


My band's setup is similar to yours except we have a "fuller" PA system.


We do all of our recordings live off the floor - even our actual, final recordings, let alone our musical ideas.


If you are solely adjusting levels, the issue of mic bleed becomes even less significant than it already is. It is completely unnoticeable.


We tried recording with headphones once, and none of us really liked it. I would suggest sticking to how you are used to playing and rehearsing... I really do think that headphones would inhibit the spontaneity of your improv jams. Just run some direct outs from each channel strip on your mixer into your audio interface, and hit record and you're set. I really wouldn't do it any other way seeing as how you are not even recording a final draft. Your worries about room bleed are really insignificant considering the circumstances of the use of your recordings.


Good luck!

Jesse

 

You know Jesse,,, I'm inclined to agree. I was discussing this very point, just this afternoon with our lead guitarist.

 

We have a pretty mixed bag of tunes. We'll wail away on blues, rock, classic rock, originals, and even a few bluegrass tunes. We'll routinely switch back and forth from finger-style acoustic guitars and bass, then plug a Les Paul into my Mesa-Boogie Mk.III combo, and just wail. We certainly have a lot of fun doing it too.

 

We're just in the process of adding mics to the drum-kit (MD-421's, Senn e902, C-451's, and SM-57's). As for PA gear, we've got 7 kilowatts available; four Yorkville NX55p's, four EF500pb's, and a pair of LS720p subs, and to be honest we've never even tried plugging into that gear, for fear of blowing the walls outta the place. A single NX55p does a heckuva good job of pumping vocals over the acoustic drumkit and backline.

 

These sessions are really light-hearted, and we kid around a lot. We don't want to lose that free-flowing feeling, but,,,,, some of the guys are getting a whole lot more serious about developing tunes, and "our sound". It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.

 

As for "phones", I'm still very divided. As I said above, I already have the 6 channel Rane headphone amp, and a single pair of HD280 Pro's, so maybe I'll do a little experiment with the guys tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon. We're working on setting up a two-day jam, to take us into the new year. If we can pull it off, it should be a great way to close 2010. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

As for PA gear, we've got 7 kilowatts available; four Yorkville NX55p's, four EF500pb's, and a pair of LS720p subs, and to be honest we've never even tried plugging into that gear, for fear of blowing the walls outta the place.

 

 

JESUS...that's a damn good PA you guys have! If you happen to run the entire band through that, make sure everybody is playing in a doorway for fear of the roof collapsing, lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

JESUS...that's a damn good PA you guys have! If you happen to run the entire band through that, make sure everybody is playing in a doorway for fear of the roof collapsing, lol

 

:lol::lol::lol: Yeah, it's a bit insane for our needs really. It's still under development too.

 

I started out with a pair of NX55p's,,, then added a pair of LS720p subs,,,, then bought a second pair of NX55p's for use as monitors,,,, then the four EF500pb's came along, so we can now use the all of the NX55p's as monitors if need be. I still have to buy the subs to match the EF500pb's though. Probably a pair of Yorkville Unity UCS1p's to start, then if we start to do outdoor gigs, maybe add another pair. We're probably a year away from that requirement however, so for 2011, we're looking at perhaps going digital, and adding either a Yamaha O1v96, or a StudioLive 24;4,2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

:lol:
:lol:
:lol:
Yeah, it's a bit insane for our needs really. It's still under development too.

We're probably a year away from that requirement however, so for 2011, we're looking at perhaps going digital, and adding either a Yamaha O1v96, or a StudioLive 24;4,2.

 

If you go digital, I'd step up to at least a Yamaha DM1000. I use this board on a nightly basis to mix a 12 piece orchestra, plus 5 vocal mic's. (I run sound for a Frank Sinatra Tribute show), lol. O1v96 isn't a bad board, I find the preamps to be a little cleaner in the DM1000 though, plus you get more Omni outs. Idk...just my 2 cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

If you go digital, I'd step up to at least a Yamaha DM1000. I use this board on a nightly basis to mix a 12 piece orchestra, plus 5 vocal mic's. (I run sound for a Frank Sinatra Tribute show), lol. O1v96 isn't a bad board, I find the preamps to be a little cleaner in the DM1000 though, plus you get more Omni outs. Idk...just my 2 cents.

 

Staticsound, I was looking at a Yamaha DM1000 just last week in fact. It's easy to see why you'd like that board too. Very impressive indeed. Aside from the points you've mentioned, I also find the display a lot better. I'm just beginning my research into the digital boards, so it's hard to say at this point, which way I'll go. My initial impression is that the StudioLive may be easier to use when mixing from the stage, while on the other hand, the DM1000 and O1v96 may offer more to a dedicated FOH or studio engineer. I've gotta admit that I also have a weak-spot for the Toft ATB series mixer as well. :)

 

BTW, I checked out some of your mixes in your other thread "Would". VEEEEERY nice work. :thu: :thu: We'd be thrilled to even remotely approach your level of expertise. We're completely new to recording, so we've got a long row to hoe before we get there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Continuing my "not especially helpful posts", the scenario you are describing would be much easier if the drummer were using VDrums :/

 

 

One of the guys who may sit in from time to time, has a Yamaha electric drumkit, so we may experiment with that kit. The acoustic kit we're presently using, is a 6-piece Premier (U.K.) kit, and it sounds wonderful. It's very well-tuned (no boom/ no "ring"), and very warm sounding. Our current drummer just loves it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

BTW, I checked out some of your mixes in your other thread "Would". VEEEEERY nice work.
:thu:
:thu: We'd be thrilled to even remotely approach your level of expertise. We're completely new to recording, so we've got a long row to hoe before we get there.

 

Thanks man, to be honest though, the Would track, I just used a backing track and put my vox on top of it. If you listened to any of the others on my page though, those were all my mixes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

We have been jammin like you intend for 10 years. get the headphone distribution head and closed back cans. If you are running everything through a mixing console you will get a fine monitoring feed, have everyone talking whenever they want and some tracks that can be tweeked to taste and even developed into demos, with or without dubs.

 

We even put our drummer behind glass a few years ago to give him an aquarium to live in, he loves it.

 

Another way to go on the headphones is mix and match them- we have a dozen different ones that have accumulated over the years, my favs are an early closed back AKG K-series, the bass guy likes another, the drummer wears whatever we throw him in his gerbal tank.

 

Go for this, you'll be glad you did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...