Samples vs. Keyboard

Hi all...

I have a friend who told me that I could buy all the samples of a MOTIF, Triton, whatever on eBay and then use them in Reason with a sampler.

I'm quite new to all of this stuff and I was wondering what the difference would be between doing this and having the actual keyboard?

I get a major school discount through guitar center, and the next semester is bringing my wife and I some extra cash so I would like to buy some new toys. We had thought about getting a Motif, but they're still a bit cost prohibitive at this point, so being able to use reason and some samples would be awesome. I'm mainly wanting some string stuff, but all sounds are definitely welcomed... heh.

FWIW, Processing power is NOT a problem. I'll be using a 4 core machine (dual, dual-core opterons) PLUS we're also going to get a new Laptop, of which I may dedicate to reason (IE, it will have its very own Core 2 Duo proc... heh) while recording... just depends).

Thanks much!

Brandon

I've been in your shoes, a young married guy strapped for cash but still trying to support your hobby. I say go for Reason and a good sample library. I don't know about the Motif library or any other off eBay, but I'm pretty sure Reason comes with samples, plus there are lots of freebies on the 'net if you need more.

I have a couple friends who make great stuff with only some VSTs and samples.

I have a cheap but effective setup and the wife and I live comfortably.

Awesome, man... I appreciate your reply.

Can you comment on the differences between using reason, some samples, and a controller as opposed to just using the keyboard sound wise?

IE, can I load a sample into a sampler, and "play it" with the controller just like a keyboard preset, so to speak?

Or if anyone has a link to a website that goes over all this stuff, that would be great too!

Thanks again!

Brandon

Originally posted by Godsguitarist73 .... the next semester is bringing my wife and I some extra cash so I would like to buy some new toys. We had thought about getting a Motif ....

Did you see that? This is Father Knows Best all over again! "WE had thought about buying a Motif ...." How cool is that?

Reminds me of the really cool woman I married. I once asked her if I could buy this keyboard, and she said, "If the rent is paid, sure." Sounds like she's quite a find, Godsguitarist. She realizes that denying you your music would be like asking you not to breathe.

It's actually even better... it's her music, too.

She sings like an angel and plays piano a bit while I do the technical stuff and show her all the cool and wonderful things we can do with MIDI and how much better it would be if we weren't having to use Reason Adapted and bought the full version... lol.

And I do have quite the woman... thanks.

She's getting her degree in music business and I'm doing production tech.

Great stuff!

And, BTW, I just used samples and the NN19, so I'm good to go.

Brandon

IMO samples are not comparable with multisamples used in PCM romplers like Motif. For NN19 there are comparable only Refills multisample libraries and it is reasonable to buy Sonic Refills Gold Bundle in your case:

http://www.sonicreality.com/viewDetails.php?ProductID=1279

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply, Pagan.

So I can get sounds that are comparable to the motif's (as far as being multisampled) through refills?

I had considered getting that bundle, anyways. GC is giving us an awesome discount... cost +12%!

Thinking about it, we may be better off getting a Motif Rack ES instead of Reason and a bunch of refills... although both definitely have their advantages and disadvantages. Hmmm... decisions, decisions...

Any thoughts on the MOTIF rack es?

Thanks again!

Brandon

As hardware has minimal latency for MIDI playback, it gets my symphaty when talking about romplers. Also because you own already the Reason, it is reasonable to buy Refill pack already mentioned. I really cannot give you good advice at this point. If you are maximalist then get both one by one. If the budget is limited then get Refills. No rompler sounds exactly same as the other and you may like to get different instruments sounds from both and maybe even mix them together to get "phatter sound".

Whats sounds are you after from the Motif ES for eg?

When i used to use Reason 3 I often found that the sounds in the main propellerheads sounds library where actually better then any rompler for my taste - a more raw natural quality to them (which IMHO is lost is yamaha's processing).

Your obviously planning on Reason 3 anyway - I would just get that and see what you think of the result.

Reason has its plusses (v good internal workflow, huge flexibility with what you can do with its built in modules etc), but its a complete sod to work with when you *also* want to use other gear, VSTs in a DAW etc. Rewire is my idea of hell.

Its biggest problem is its a closed system - if you like some VST you cant easily just load it into a reason rack. Nor can you load reason modules, combinators etc into a DAW directly.

As for the sampler side - NN19 is good for basic sample messing about - very basic. You want to use the NN-XT. If you are going to get into multi-sampling, then its quite an involved process, but the NN-XT is actually an excellent mutli-sample player - perhaps one of the best with all its zone and layering setup, cross fades etc - you can easily build up massively multi-sample sounds in it in a way that is hard (impossible?) to do in most sampling romplers.

Oh yeh - 3 of you 4 cores are going to be a waste of space with reason - they will be good for keeping you house warm - that about it. The reason audio engine is still in the stone age in this respect. Props and prop fan boys do like to point out how ligh weight and fast and easy reason is - well - thats probably because they havnt yet tried to do all the hard wark of making it expandable, multi-CPU, VST intergrated/hosting etc.

Its a great place to start - but its not nice to use when you want to grow beyond it - I suspect there are a hell of alot of X reason users here like myself who found it too much of a pain in the arse when they wanted to expand beyond it,...

Wow... that helps a lot, Khazul. I appreciate your reply.

I think I will probably start with Reason. The NN19 is all I have access to right now (Adapted came with Pro Tools I bought about 2 months ago) so I will be eventually upgrading to the full version of 3.0. I think the sounds that I'll use more than any will probably be symphonic sounds... mainly strings, but I've considered playing around with Redrum but I think I'd rather go with BFD on drums... I'll just have to play with both until I find what I like. I've also got BFD Lite, so once I get a computer powerful enough to run it along with pro tools as well, I'll compare them side by side.

I'm not looking for super expandability at this point, so with your suggestions I think I'll start with Reason, maybe get some refills I like, and just go from there. The only reason I'm looking at a Motif ES is because its what I've used at school and I'm already familiar with most of the basics of it and I really liked a lot of the sounds... but that's not a huge deal...

Thanks again for your reply! I think it was just what I needed (or maybe wanted...) to hear.

Brandon

The difference is most likely that the sample pack isn't quite as pristinely recorded as the Motif's own stuff, that you only get samples that vary in volume because the guy who sampled it was more interested in being lazy and making a quick buck instead of doing the job right, and that you're paying for what's possibly copyright infringement.

For instance, take a piano. To sample a piano, you can do the following:

- press the middle C on a real piano and hold it

- record that

- let the sampling engine "stretch" it over the entire keyboard

It will sound like crap, because the higher notes will be unnaturally bright and short, and the lower ones will be unnaturally dull and long. When you're recording a sample of a real instrument, you also record the "volume curve" (also called envelope) of that instrument, as well as the spectrum - which is why the higher notes are bright and the lower ones are dull.

A better way to record is to make a sample of every 6th key. You get a C1, G#1, C2, G#2, and so on. That way, samples don't get ridiculously if you speed 'm up, and the range where they're sped up on doesn't influence the sound - much.

An even better way is to record every single key, at 3 different volumes - because when you press a key harder, the sound will not only get louder but also change in character.

You can make this really ridiculous and record 8 strikes of every single key, and for kicks, even different pianos. That's when you get into software territory because most samplers stop around 512 megabyte. Even then, a well-programmed piano sample set that's "only" 32 megabyte can sound better than a lousy-recorded 3 gigabyte sample set.

If said person with the Motif only recorded every note at maximum volume once, you'll lose a lot what makes the Motif attractive - namely, the clever programming that has gone into it. To properly re-sample a Motif (provided that one had the right to do so) you'd get every multisample via a digital connection so the things would arrive exactly as planned, without effects, filters, or envelopes. It'd cost way more than a $49 cd would ever return.

And that's only the piano. Think about strings, brass, all those sounds. If you want a software solution anyway, look into SampleTank 2 or something. It's not the Motif, but it's less likely to hurt your wallet.

FYI, there's "light"-weight Motifs, too - the MO6, MO7 and MO8. At NAMM, the Mini-Mo will be released, which also might be nice.

No, but your audio interface will be, because the on-board card will turn out to be a huge bottleneck. Get an audio interface with ASIO and a nice controller keyboard plus a decent set of monitor speakers .

Thanks for the reply, man... all of that makes perfect sense.

I think I've decided against the guy on eBay... if I get anything, it will probably be some actual Reason Refills, such as the one linked earlier in the thread or maybe the silver pack plus a couple.

I had thought about a Mo at one point, but they are quite hard to find used... however, now that we're getting the discount, I really don't have to worry about that... I think I've heard the difference is that they don't have a sampler on them? Plus they're half the polyphony... but I'm not sure that I'll go over 64 notes anyways... I'm only wanting to supplement some music at this point. Its something I'll have to look into again... thanks.

Oh, and I didn't mention it, but I've got an audio interface as well... I know better than to use a standard sound card. I've got an M-Audio Firewire 1814... its not an RME, but 8ms latency is not too bad... We're also planning on getting a controller... not sure which one yet, tho. I'm thinking about a CME of some sort... I'd kind of like to try M-Audio but I hear they are prone to falling apart... we'll see.

Monitors are on their way next month as well... probably samson resolvs to begin with. Eventually I'll probably get some HR824s or maybe some used Adams, just depends.

Thanks again for all of your guys help!

Brandon

Propellerheads has the "Orkester" refills which should give you some nice sounds.

Here's another trick from the business - those 64 notes won't be 64 notes. They'll be 64 multisamples. E.g. if you have 1 "Element" (as Yamaha calls them, or used to call them) which is a piano multisample and another element is a string multisample, you'll have 64 / 2 = 32 notes to play if you want to hear layered piano and strings.

It's the same for the Fantoms, Tritons, and whatnot - the presets that actually give you those 64 or 128 notes are those which only require a single multisample. Software is less of a pain in that respect, because you can bounce the track to harddisk if you need to free up CPU power. Though I expect you will have a harder time hitting the limit than me - just a single-CPU XP2400+ here .

Excellent, then you're set for that one .

If I'm not mistaken, the Orkester library actually is bundled with Reason and has been since v2.0.

I'm not a huge virtual orchestra type of guy but the sounds in that library really sounded very nice to me.

Good to know about the bundle and that you liked the sounds, program_insect. If it wasn't bundled, I'd probably buy it anyway.

To make sure I understand...

You're saying that loading up a multi-sampled instrument or two can take all of your polyphony? Or they only count as one? We went over that in class, but I can't quite remember. We went over A LOT of stuff in class... heh.

So I think overall I'm going to stick to Reason for now. I think for no more than we need right now it will do the trick quite nicely. We need to be working on other things, anyways... and, if I need to, I have free access to a rather nice studio...

And I feel ya on that cpu power! Right now I've only got a single XP2500+, thus the upgrade so I can run some soft instruments.

Thanks again for all of your guys help! I really appreciate it.

Brandon