Justifying Yamaha S90-ES imminent purchase

Gday everyone,

As seems to be the trend, first post .... what digital piano to buy?

I have taken most peoples advice and have read all the threads about the Yamaha-S90-ES and Roland RD-700sx pianos and gone into my local music stores and played these and other digital piano models. But i feel like i need to get confirmation of what i have made up in my mind.

My budget is $3000 max (AUS dollar) which to give you some idea the Roland RD-700sx retails for about $3600 over here.

This is what i want:

- Great piano sounds

- Not fussed about touch (as long as not too heavy)

- Want a good array of pad/string sounds that sound great

- Not too fussed about other sounds but would like:

- a good sounding organ(s) and electric piano(s)

- Portable

To be used for:

- Piano sounds, mainly for home use where i want to get back into playing piano (learnt for ~ 6 years but haven't played seriously for about 5 years)

- Other sounds, for playing in band at church, where mainly doing synth work, e.g. strings/pad in background.

So after playing a number of piano models, the Yamaha S90-ES and Roland 700SX impressed me the most, but these cost a lot of $$$

So my questions are:

- For my requirements is something like the Yamaha S90-ES and Roland RD-700SX overkill?? Especially if im not going to be nit picky about touch and getting the best piano sound.

- What features will i be missing out on by choosing the Yamaha S90-ES over the Roland?? if any??

- And finally, to through a spanner in the works, is there another model that will suit my needs better??

Hopefully i have give enough info....

Thanks

Nathan

Welcome to the forum. Either board would be a great choice for you, though neither is extremely portable. I really think you need to play both and decide which one you like the best. It is extremely subjective to compare them.

I actually just played both the other day.

I like the Yamaha's action a lot better...but I always like Yamaha's action a lot better. You really should play them for yourself.

Its funny this thread was brought up. I own a Roland Fantom X8 which I will be trading in soon for a S90 ES. Im doing so for a few reasons.

1. Expression. The Fantom keybed (Which is the same as the RD-700SX if I recall.) is just too stiff, especially when triggering aftertouch. Aftertouch on the S90 ES is far more expressive and much more nuanced. I also prefer Mod/Pitch Wheels over Roland's weird pitch/mod stick. To be honest I have never been a huge fan of Roland's weighted keybeds. Though their synth action keybeds are sweet.

2. Sounds. This mainly comes down to personal opinion, but Roland's pianos have always sounded rather plasticky and shallow. I even installed the SRX-11 expansion and tried tweaking the hell out of the patches to get a sound that I liked, and after a year I gave up. The S90 on the otherhand was immediately enjoyable, inspiring, and gave me a more realistic illusion of being at a real grand. You're also going to have more access to a broader range of synth sounds on the S90 ES, than you would on the RD-700SX.

+900,000

On the face of it it sounds like S90-ES might be overkill. Your requirements sound a bit like mine were - mostly piano, but with some strings/pads etc and ability to sequence (which S90-ES doesn't have)....

I went with a Yamaha CP300 which I got for around $2900 AUD about a year ago, so they're probably cheaper now.

Not very portable, but amazing action and pianos.....not a big fan of the strings.

Onboard sequencing was probably not worth worrying about, as trying to do it all through a stupid little LCD is frustrating - one day I'll buy some decent software and just hook up my laptop.

The onboard speakers are amazing. The vibrations make the playing seem alive.

A cheaper and more portable option may be the P140 if you want speakers or CP33 if you don't.

If you're not that picky about keyboard action (touch) consider the RD 300SX. In stereo you get a very good piano sound, good organs and decent not great EP's. The bass sounds are very good and you get some basic string, pads, horns, saxes etc plus a GM band of sounds.

It's much more portable than either the 700SX or the S90ES at 35lbs. The action is on the light side and not popular with many folks but I've grown to like it. It's a good feel for playing piano and organ, synth sounds. I bought mine new 2 years ago and paid $1250. I'll bet you can get a better deal today.

Also take a look at the Roland FP4 and the Yamaha P120.

Both the 700SX and S90ES are great boards with tons of cool sounds and features but you pay considerably more for them and moving them sometimes involves more time and energy than you think. You need to decide if you want and need all those extras or can go with the slimmed down versions which are still very good. EWall

Yamaha builds fine instruments that are sturdy and heavy. The balanced weighted action on the S90ES is great.

Their piano sounds are great, but the weak spot is the organs.

The RD700sx has a few more performance features that the S90ES doesn't have. You can create drum patterns on the fly with intro/outro capabilities.

The S90ES is a synthesizer, The RD700sx is a digitial piano. The S90ES has a lot more programming capability than the Roland in this case, but if you like the stock sounds on either or both instruments, you might only do some minor tweaking of factory sounds. The Yamaha user interface is not as user friendly as Roland. The piano sounds may be a toss up, with the S90ES having half pedal capability, not sure if the RD700SX does or not. The S90ES doesn't really have a Leslie SIMM, but you can edit the Chorus and LFO to improve the factory patches to arrive at a more than acceptable organ sound or two. If all else fails on either instrument, you can always GET A LESLIE (in the future). Motion Sound makes some decent, light weight alternatives.

Both instruments are fairly heavy and won't be a pleasure to move, so you need to budget for a good quality case.

You can also consider the Yamaha CP33 if you want a less expensive digital piano. Not very many controls or much editing capability, but MAP price in the US is $1299.00. Not to shabby.

You said you needed to do some synth work too? Can you explain in more detail.

Mike T.

squared.

I think they have great organs and suffer on the strings/pad side. I guess we all have different taste.

+1. My contention, exactly. May be something to consider if you are in need of organ for church services.

I think they are ok depending on function. There are a couple decent Hammonds...but only a couple, and the different leslie speeds are not convincing. I play piano for a church, and there is a keyboardist as well. The church bought the S90ES on my recommendation, and it gets used for pipe organs a lot...which sound great. On something like Amazing Grace it sounds alright if you call up a certain Hammond sound and just play it how it is. If you want to speed up the Leslie then look elsewhere...

The S90ES does have several leslie sims. It may be a little overkill, as might the RD700. Neither of them is easy to move as others have mentioned. The ES is slightly more unwieldy. It also (to my ears) has an audibly better piano sound.

I use the S90ES in a church context for pads and organs. There are a number of decent pipe emulations, as well as passable B3's. You can do the usual layered stuff that the RD will do, or additionally use the synth architecture for filter sweeps, midi synced lfo beds etc. If the RD uses the same toggle system as the Fantom for turning sounds on and off in multi-timbral mode (performance mode) this would be more useful than the Yamaha approach. That's one thing I miss in the S90ES. Everything else about it is very nice and luxurious.

Hope this helps,

Jerry

From the S90ES data list:

TREMOLO

AUTO PAN

AUTO PAN2

ROTARY SPEAKER

DISTORTION+ROTARY SPEAKER

OVERDRIVE+ROTARY SPEAKER

AMP SIM.+ROTARY SPEAKER

2WAY ROTARY SPEAKER

DISTORTION+2WAY ROTARY SPEAKER

OVERDRIVE+2WAY ROTARY SPEAKER

AMP SIM.+2WAY ROTARY SPEAKER

DUAL ROTOR SPEAKER1

DUAL ROTOR SPEAKER2

DUAL ROTOR SPEAKER3

There are in fact "leslie simulation effects" in the S90ES. There are also a large number of third party organ voices available here:

http://www.sninety.com/S_Mart/

Thanks support guy, I had assumed the "leslie simm" was exactly the same as the Motif ES8's, which isn't all that hot, but it IS workable. I changed around some things on the B3 patches on my Motif ES8 and they are more convincing IMHO. Yamaha doesn't tend to set up their factory sounds with tons of effects (that's a good thing) so there are some things that you can do to beef up the FX is that's your goal.

Mike T.

Yamaha is really weird about how they set up their presets. I was playing the S90 ES yesterday and I wanted to demo Aftertouch some more, and I couldn't find one preset that used it.

Fortunately assigning it was easy as pie, which surprised me as I always found Yamaha to be a programming nightmare.

Thanks peoples for all your info/advice so far ... (more stuff to ponder over).

A few have mentioned the portability issue of these bigger boards. Just wondering about two points:

1. I cart a 19kg bass amp around a bit and don't find it too painful, is carting around a 22kg keyboard (in the S90-ES case) a lot worse?? or is it the size that's the problem??

2. If initially i would probably only be taking it outside my house say, 6 times a year (maybe more in future), would a hard-case be neccessary?? would a soft-case suffice??

Can you expand on this more mike. t???

I just got a S90ES and am tickled. Luckily I won't have to rely on the organs. My Hammond X1 box with the tone bars will NEVER exit my rig.

I told the band after I got the S90ES that I wasn't going to take off the plastic protector over the LCD until I used it at a gig and was sure I was going to keep it....the singer came over and tore the thing off after our second song of the first set! It made THAT big of an impression.

As a 'feel' player the action was the final deciding factor in my purchase.

I don't mind the weight, but that length makes it really awkward to move. Grab a 5 foot plank and try getting through doors, turning down halls, loading in garages, etc, and you'll get the idea. It's the only reason I haven't bought one.

Unlike the S80 there are no knobs sticking up. I'd probably soft case it but I know that there are some in this forum that wouldn't!

Bradders,

There's also the Kurzweil PC series, with very good pianos, electric pianos and strings. Not to mention the KB3 organ if you choose a PC2 or PC2X.

Just making sure you're checking all the options.

The Yamaha pianos and actions put Kurzwiel piano sounds in the toilet.

It seems those who enjoy Roland's sampled pianos rarely like the Yamaha product, and vice versa. Very at odds, for some reason.

Personally, I think Yamaha "grand pianos" sound like they've sampled in the sound of ice picks ... "Plasticky?" Yeah, that's the Yamaha sound in a word, IMO.

... to me, the Roland's sound warm, dynamic and very rewarding to play pianisssimo ...

Can't really comment on the key action of the X8, but I adore the keybed/response of my X7 ...

... but to each their own ... Good luck!

I bought a soft case for mine for two reasons: cost, and because I don't take it out much. and when I do I'm very careful and use another person. But the downfall to either type of case for the S90ES is that your options are severely limited since the keyboard is so long, and only a few manufacturers make cases that long. A hard case could cost you over $400 - a worthwhile investment on your $2000 keyboard providing you use it on the road regularly, but I bought a soft case with backing and wheels on it for $160, and while it's extremely awkward to move, it provides enough protection for what I use it for and how often.

I doubt that I would put an S90ES in a soft case, the weight would tear the case before too long. If you shop it, you can get a 3/8" plywood case with the plastic cover and aluminum corners, recessed handles for 299 to 350 from a generic mfg. The hard cases provide a better seal and keep dampness out. They usually have heavier foam than soft cases and in the long run will keep your new KB looking great. If you're in a band and have someone to help you with it, its not too difficult to manage. I have a hard case for my Motif ES8 and it weighs almost as much as the Motif, but I manage it with a hand truck by myself. At age 59, it hurts more, but I don't like risking my board.

Mike T.