RD300GX as Controller for Motif Rack XS?

So I was looking at equipment catalogs at home today

Don't toy w/me SOHH - give up the goods... - - and YES, I will make my decision based SOLELY on your input.

Based on what I know about GigMan, I would not recommend this rig for a couple of reasons.

1) The 300GX, while a fine keyboard, lacks the uber cool action of the 700GX. No Ivory Feel, no escapement. The action is lighter in general and I think you'd be disappointed in comparison to the 700GX and S90ES actions that have become beacons in this segment.

2) Dealing with a module will increase your programming curve and inhibit spontaneity. You'll need to roll everything offline for gigs and if you get inspired in the moment, tweaking a 1 space rack unit is not exactly fun on stage. I have concluded after many years of experience that I appreciate having the sounds and interface right there in the keyboard in front of me.

3) The cost for 300GX + XS Rack is likely higher than buying one inclusive instrument.

The main benefit of what you suggest is the weight factor, but I believe that trading off the spontaneity and pro instrument factors is not worth a 20-30% saving in weight.

Regards,

Eric

Ah... you speak wise & have learned me well, grasshopper...

I did try the action on both the 700GX and the 300GX for a short time in GC recently - the 700GX action really is phenomenal, just a wee bit lighter than the S90ES, which is also excellent but a little heavy/stiff for my hands (though I'm sure I could adapt/build up strength to get used to that over time)... the 300GX action is also very good, way better than its predecessor the 300SX - but the 300GX action still doesn't compare to the 700GX action.

Main benefits of the rig I describe are definitely lighter weight but also huge variety of sounds - having both a 300GX and a Motif rack together... but it's true - a lot of "offline" prep would be necessary. Now I figured even if I got just an S90ES or an RD700GX there'd be a certain amount of offline prep needed as well - dan88z said a while back that when he 1st got his S90ES he spent 6-8 hrs. setting it all up to use for live gigs... but I guess having a MIDI module really does complicate things much moreso.

.....but I guess having a MIDI module really does complicate things much moreso.....

But it really is a beautiful thing once everything is programmed.....press one button on your controller and all programs from your external synths/modules are selected, splits/layers/initial volume levels/controllers are immediately assigned, etc. Then again, I don't do a lot of spontaneous tweaking OTJ, so the convenience of programming everything will need to be balanced by your need for spontaneity. With my band, I simply program all of the sounds I need for a song within a MIDI set-up, and while I do have some favorite "go-to" set-ups, every song has its own unique, inclusive set-up.

I really like the idea of having the "Big 3" represented in your rig, but after playing the beautiful action on the RD-700GX, I would have a hard time considering the 300.

Aye - the action of the 700GX really is amazing... I think my need for spontaniety (in the wedding band and other groups I work with) is a big issue - so maybe the controller & module setup isn't for me at this time after all...

So what are your thoughts on the PC3X?

If they had the damn things in Guitar Center - I could give concrete opinion, instead of just "thought"... but unfortunately they don't, which is why I'll have to travel 1.5 hrs. to Alto Music in Middletown, NY to hear all of these side-by-side:

Kurzweil PC3X

Yamaha S90ES

Roland RD700GX

Roland RD300GX

... but anyway - my "thought" is that the Roland RD700GX does have kick-ass feeling keys/action but is not quite as versatile out-of-the-box as the Yam. S90 or the Kurz. PC3X so it is likely that those are the two I'll audition closely head-to-head (the PC3X vs. the S90ES).

If they had the damn things in Guitar Center - I could give concrete opinion, instead of just "thought"... but unfortunately they don't, which is why I'll have to travel 1.5 hrs. to Alto Music in Middletown, NY to hear all of these side-by-side: Kurzweil PC3X Yamaha S90ES Roland RD700GX Roland RD300GX ... but anyway - my "thought" is that the Roland RD700GX does have kick-ass feeling keys/action but is not quite as versatile out-of-the-box as the Yam. S90 or the Kurz. PC3X so it is likely that those are the two I'll audition closely head-to-head (the PC3X vs. the S90ES).

looks like you have a long way to go

I will save my carpal tunnel for a better cause

Will the keyboards split the voices in the rack xs? Other then playing the keys, they won't offer anymore control then the rack if you placed it above the keyboard. But luck hasn't shined for me on working the module es version with the editor or controller. The manual with the es was tiny, to get used to the LCD. You did well to wait for the xs rack. good luck

I don't think anyone's made a piano sound in hardware yet that is as gorgeous as the S90ES.

But of course, the PC3X will give you tons more stuff, and the pianos aren't half bad either. Until you get there, check out the piano sounds at www.purgatorycreek.com if you haven't yet, and check out all the other sounds you want at the Kurz site, they have tons of demos. In terms of strings/orchestral and synth sounds, the Yammy won't be anywhere near the same ballpark as the Kurz.

And by the way, if you decide to get a Motif Rack XS down the road, the PC3X will do amazing stuff as a controller.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this point. I'm of the opinion that you're destined to make pretty much any/all "tweaks" offline if your rig is ROMpler based - regardless of whether it's a 1u rack unit or a full blown keyboard with all the controls right there in front of you.

In my rig (RD700SX, CP300 and Motif ES Rack) - any "real" parameter changes (i.e., anything much more than program presets - and maybe the transpose button) is buried deep in a multi-tiered menu structure that I have no desire to try to touch in "real time" while performing. Any "real time" patch morphing that I do happens only because I've done the requisite "off line" setup to assign an apppriate knob or fader to control the parameter(s) that need to be changed.

A rack unit will likely add a little to the programming learning curve - but I don't find it makes much of a difference in terms of using it live. But unless you're using a real "knobby synth" - the typical menu controlled ROMpler is still way too cumbersome to be tweaking in live situations.

All I know is that on a Motif to fade elements in and out in Voice you have to go into that hornet's nest they mockingly call Control. I guess that's because it wants control over you!

Gary really think this through man. You and I... we're kinda doing the same thing here I think. Not a few high-profile gigs a month, but quite a few down dirty ones. Quick and sometimes difficult setups in less than ideal situations. You don't want too be messing around with a module, especially one with an external power supply. Get a light piano for the bottom... my live setup will soon contain either a PX-320 or P85 personally, and a rompler on top. If you need organs mostly go Korg which I think is your preferred brand anyway. The Ms have better Hammond/Leslies than Fantoms or Motifs. And I'm a Roland guy so that's tough to admit.

Good point and I agree with most of what you said. However, even if one were to completely program all module settings and master keyboard settings "offline," I promise you that it will be much more time consuming to work with the 2 pieces vs. one integrated piece. I used a rack system with controller for a number of years and once I had it right, it was all good. However, whenever my band added new repetoire or I just wanted a simple refresh on sounds, this required lugging out the rack and the master keyboard, making edits to the rack and the master keyboard, lather, rinse, repeat, you get the idea.

Whether dealing with on-the-fly spontaneity on the gig or elegant simplicity at home, the integrated and inclusive instrument is gonna be a more inspiring "go to" instrument.

I'll also second mrcpro's post that an added hassle when doing fast gigs, openers for nationals, etc. when you have no time for setup...it is a ROYAL pain to deal with the hassle of a rack. This can be mitigated by having a great cabling solution and repeatable setup pattern, but it is an added burden that is non-trivial. Even with all the time in the world, a master board plus a rack requires more patch cables, more MIDI cables, more power cables, etc.

Then you have to consider how you transport the rack and where you put it on stage. Do you combine it with other rack units in a big rack on wheels, upon which you put your stage monitor? Or do you tuck it into a stealth rack bag that sits beside your stand? Or perch it upon another stand so you can keep it within arm's reach? Do you go "commando" and avoid a rack case altogether? Some people do. I'm not one of them. There are lots of options.

In the end, I've grown to love the immediacy of having inclusive instruments and using a rig with 2 keyboards that can handle pretty much 95% of what I throw at it.

Make sense?

Both Eric and mrcpro (Bill, right?) make good points here - though I will go you one further,:

In any given month I do both the "high-profile" gigs (weddings where the pressure's on for the 1st dances - bride+groom, dad+daughter, mom+son) and the "down+dirty" gigs, in cramped little bar-room corners or restaurants w/tiny little spots that are right outside the restrooms or near the kitchen, etc...

So I am realizing that the rack thing is maybe not the greatest idea for me - at least right now... maybe down the road, after upgrading to a nice 88key machine (S90ES, PC3X, whatever it may be...) - I could pick up a used ______ rack (Fantom XR, Motif ES, whatever...) and integrate it in as an add-on for sh*ts and giggles...

I used a MIDI module for years and years - started w/a Yamaha FB01, then had a Yamaha EMT-10 then for about 10 years or so, a Kurzweil MicroPiano - so I know the pressures of rigging up the module, cabling, not hearing it, do I have the MIDI cord in the OUT or THRU instead of the IN, etc...

I just played a Yammie P85 tonite at the music store where my son takes drum lessons - not bad action at all and it's very lightweight overall (25lbs., 9oz.!). For a solo thing that's mostly piano, it'd be real nice. Believe me, I'd much rather drag 25 or 26lbs. around w/me than 55lbs. but it just doesn't have enough variety of sounds in it that I need for band gigs & hey - that's the cost of "playing in the big leagues..."

Yeah I'm projecting my thoughts for myself onto yours here Gary... sorry. Anyway I'll always have a second board on top, but right now I miss a weighted 88 piano on the bottom. I've been gigging for a year now with only an ES7 most of the time. With these two new lightweights (P85 & PX-320) available that's about to change. I can't imagine anyone complaining about the piano sound from either of them in a live setting. Or could I imagine myself wanting a better sound in that environment.

I'm favoring the P85 at the moment because it has that familiar Yamaha digital piano sound that works so well onstage.