MIDI Controller choice advice?

I like using software for my synthesis so I just need a MIDI controller and not a synth. At the moment I'm using a Yamaha P80 which is a really heavy 88 key rig. I'd like to invest in a nice rig I can take to practice and performance with less hassle.

Since I've been running an 88 key rig I'm a little nervous about going with fewer keys, but I don't think I really need that much range at the cost of portability/weight. 61 key rigs seem to be where the most selection is, so I think that might be a good thing to do. Can anyone reassure me that I won't miss the full 88 keys?

Things I'm interested in are in rough order from most important to least:

- weight/portability

- durability

- key feel

- USB powered/MIDI over USB (I have waaay to much cable mess now)

- aftertouch

- I'd love to have _two_ expression pedal inputs plus the sustain, but I haven't seen this anywhere. I have a separate usb device w/ four exp pedal inputs, but I'd love to drop that and just have it in the board.

- integrated drum pad (not really necessary, but kind of nice)

- integrated sliders/knobs (not really necessary, but kind of nice)

I've been googling for the past few hours and my favorite I see so far I think is the Rolland PCR-800. It's only ~10lbs. I also see that Roland is launching 10 new products tomorrow, so maybe my perfect board will among them.

Anyone have any other suggestions/advice?

If you're used to 88 keys, 76 will seem a little skimpy, and 61 may or may not be useable for you as an only board. How much of the key range do you normally use?

No specific suggestions for boards though.

Well I played classical independently for a couple years and then started learning theory and some non-classical songs so I could be in a band. I'm in a really fun band now for a couple of months and we already have two moderately successful gigs (for what we're doing anyway, just hobby stuff) and a recording under our belts (http://myspace.com/loveliesdyingmusic) so what I mean by that is I'm used to having 88 keys when I played classical and used most of the range, but I'm pretty new to playing non-classical style in a rock band and at this point anyway I'm not really using more than like 3-4 octaves. It also seems like the keyboard players in the other band I see doing similar styles use what look like 61 keys too.

I don't know of anyone posting here who has one of those (if so, they're not speaking up).

It looks pretty decent for the price. The only things I noticed are that it has Rolands lever pitch/mod thingie - can you live with that? Also, it looks like all the input/output connections are on the side. Maybe not a big deal.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of software are you going to be using.

I like to use pedals for my continuous inputs so I don't wind up using the mod wheel much, but I think if I did I like the idea of the two axis controller not having actually used it. I think I'll see if I can find one at a store here in PDX and give it a fiddle. The IO is on the side of my current rig and it works out fine.

I'm mainly using Logic with a little NI, but a big reason I like to use software is to stay flexible.

I've been looking for a really light MIDI controller for months now, so I can give you some advice here. I'm currently using a Roland RD300SX, which at 32 pounds, is a lot lighter than many other 88 weighted key controllers. But I wanted to see if there was something even lighter that I liked.

What I wanted:

88 keys, lightly weighted as per my RD300SX.

(Channel) Aftertouch.

Less than 30 pounds.

That's all. I didn't care about other features, including built-in sounds. Not a huge wish list. Nevertheless, I found an utter dirth of offerings.

First of all, many companies, whose catalogs include numerous controllers, don't seem to even make 88 key models, such as Edirol and NovaStation. Of the few controllers that did offer the first 2 features, I quickly discovered that most are heavier than 30 pounds, often substantially. Of the keyboards which are lighter, most lack aftertouch.

So I had to start dropping features.

Despite the lack of aftertouch, I recently bought an M-Audio Keystation 88es. The light weight is really nice. Unfortunately, that's all I like about it. It has a semi-weighted keyboard, which I hoped would be a usable substitute for fully weighted. It feels really heavy to the touch, like you can feel the springs working against you. Plus the keys aren't full-sized (ie, they're shorter than standard length) so it's hard to "grab" those stubby little black keys. And, the short length seems to make velocity sensitivity more hazardous, with the result that black keys tend to play at lower velocities. I won't be using this for long. I used a Roland A-33 for years, and it's non-weighted keyboard is vastly superior to the 88es take on "semi-weighted". And since you're accustomed to Yamaha's weighted keys, I don't think you'd like a semi-weighted like this.

The Casio Privas fit the bill for lighter weight, and 88 weighted keys. But no aftertouch. If you can do without the aftertouch, look into one of those.

If 33 pounds isn't too heavy for you, the RD300GX may be an option. It's more versatile as a MIDI controller than the Privas. (ie, I prefer the RD300GX patch buttons for rapidly switching between patches live, to the Casio alternative). Plus, the Roland does have channel aftertouch. If you want built-in sounds, I vastly prefer the GX to the Privas.

Neither the Privas or Roland are USB-powered.

The StudioLogic VMK-88 Plus (not the heavier VMK-188) is light, but without weighted keys. It does lack some niceties, such as the ability to transpose the keys. It supposedly has aftertouch (although the manual for it is ambiguous about that). No built-in sounds.

CME's UF 70 is 76 key model that doesn't have weighted keys. It does have aftertouch. No built-in sounds. But I wanted 88 keys, and the UF 80 is too heavy.

Perhaps the most promising item is the Fatar Numa Nano (not the regular Numa). It's 22 pounds with 88 weighted keys and aftertouch, and is USB powered. No built-in sounds. One problem is that it doesn't actually appear to be available yet. It doesn't have a lot of buttons and setup, but on paper, it looks to be the lightest offering that (should) feel like a real piano. I'm looking to get one of those when available.

Offhand, I'd recommend you start with the Privas and RD300GX, maybe look into the Numa Nano, and then work toward the other options above.

Thanks for your really helpful reply! It brought me in a bunch of places looking I hadn't been yet.

RD300GX - I don't need sounds, so I'd rather not pay for them, also it's not really light.

I actually have a keystation 88es and I don't really like it either so I lug around the heavy Yamaha instead.

StudioLogic VMK-88 - So close, but so far... It's really light, has 4 programmable pedal ports which is something I haven't found anywhere else. I think the manual is pretty unambiguous about aftertouch: from the first paragraph: "It features pitch bend, aftertouch". BUT no USB port at all... for shame... if this were just USB... Ugh! I suppose I could velcro on a USB interface or something, but still need separate power... I don't know... I haven't crossed it off completely yet.

Fatar Numa Nano - I found a creepy video of Joey D fiddling w/ one in a booth at some conference, but yeah I don't see anywhere to order one.

UTF-70 - Oh man is this thing ugly...

I think I don't actually need weighted keys. I haven't been playing so long that I'm stuck on them. In fact a nice synth action might be kind of nice.

I'll keep looking. There's a perfect board out there somewhere!

Oh wow actually wait, the VMK-88 is what I was looking at, the VMK-88 Plus IS BUS POWERED! I think I found the perfect board!

Right, it's the VMK-88 Plus I was talking about, not the regular version. I almost bought one, except there was one thing I didn't like. The programmable buttons can't be set to output MIDI Program Change messages. They can output only Note messages or Controller messages. So you can't use the buttons as a way to quickly select patches on your sound module. You have to do that annoying multi-button press where you press a button to initiate selecting a patch, press several buttons to enter a patch number, and then press an "Enter" button. That makes it impractical to change patches in the middle of a song (which I do frequently). But if that's not a concern to you...

Two other concerns you may want to investigate are:

1) Does it have full size keys, or short keys like the 88es? I find the short keys to be somewhat unplayable, and it tends to make the black keys have different velocity than the white keys.

2) Since the action is "semi-weighted", does this mean it feels like the 88es? I find the 88es fights against me. It's a "heavy" action that is constantly pushing against me. I'd rather have a plain unweighted.

But again, maybe these points aren't a concern to you.

P.S. It's almost impossible to find a place to buy a VMK-88 Plus. Most places now stock the VMK-188 instead. But, there's a place on EBay that sells a VMK-88 plus new, at the best price I've found. Do a search for "Studiologic" under "Musical Instruments", and it should turn up.

I found one at a website called scjaudio. Hopefully it's not a mistake on their part, and hopefully it's a real company. I didn't see the one on ebay until you mentioned it, but the one at scjaudio was just a couple more bucks. The strange thing is the listing for the product doesn't show up if I search for it on their own search engine, but Google knows where it is. I have a feeling I'll get an email here soon saying they don't actually have it, or a call from my bank saying they cleaned me out. If either of those happen I'll try the one from ebay.

http://www.scjaudio.com/keyboards-1/studiologic-1.html

Small update: I just called scj and it sounds to me like it's a real outfit. They said I got the last one they had and it should ship today .

Followup with a report on it here. Since you also own the 88es, I'd be interested in knowing how the keys feel compared to the 88es. If the Numa Nano never shows up in the marketplace, I may consider getting a VMK 88 Plus if it's a considerably better feel than the 88es (and full size keys).

For switching between patches live, I picked up something called an XKeys Panel made by P.I. Engineering. This company make lots of specialized USB boxes with buttons and knobs on them. You can hook it up to a computer and use it like an AKAI MPD software controller. They even have an 128 button model. I wrote some custom (Linux) software for my XKeys that sends MIDI program change messages when I press various buttons. If you're using a computer as a musical instrument, and have been looking for a "software controller", you may also want to check out P.I. Engineering.

I have a Korg Nano Control I could use for something like that if I needed it, and I'll be sure to post a report when it comes. I'm curious what software synth(s) you use in Linux?

I use a Fantom XR (Rack) for instrument sounds. It's USB-connected to my computer running Linux. My 88es is also USB-connected to my computer. Also, my XKeys software controller is USB-connected to the computer. The computer functions as an interface tying all 3 pieces of gear together (via custom Linux software I wrote).

The XKeys switches patches on the XR, and the 88es otherwise controls the XR. I also have a custom "Drum box" program I wrote running on the computer with about 6 gig of custom drum samples to recreate a very authentic sounding drum kit.

It's a very specialized setup for my particular needs.

P.S. I should have mentioned to you about the AKAI MPK88. That looks like a killer controller, but damned if I can find any info on its weight. I suspect it's a back breaker.

I had run across the AKAI and I think I eliminated it due to weight, but I didn't write down what it was, maybe I just assumed like you that it was heavy. My new board should be here on the 14th. Shipping weight is 29 lbs.

Sounds like you're a software guy too, ever mess w/ writing your own synths?

The custom drum box software I use is a software synth (with built-in sequencer), specifically for drum sounds. It has about 8 kits of drum sounds (ie, about 40 compressed 16-bit waveforms per kit) and when I select a particular beat, it "plays" that drum beat by digitally mixing the various waveforms into a 32-bit mix in realtime and sending it to the soundcard's DAC.

I also have a website called "The MIDI Technical Fanatic's Brainwashing Center" at http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt where I have some other programs I wrote. (Mostly Windows stuff at the moment. I just got into Linux).

Very nice. That will be a good resource for people here.

But it seems to have a lot of references to Win '95 era stuff. Have things changed a lot since you made the web site? And if so, do you know of where to look for more up to date info.

Yes, some of the hardware articles geared for endusers are a bit dated. (I've gotten so busy with other things that I haven't kept up with it). But the tutorials about MIDI usage are very applicable, as MIDI has hardly changed at all.

The most uptodate stuff is the programming section, since that's where my main interest lies.

Yep - that's one of the really good things about midi - it's stable, it does what's intended, and it hasn't changed much.

Thanks once again for your efforts. I'm enjoying looking stuff over.

Okay got the VMK-88+ and I've been using it for about a week now including lots of fiddling around to get used to it and I got comfortable enough to bring it to a recording session last night.

First of all it's really light and really tough/solid feeling. Like some reviews said it's made of the same plastic your chairs were made of in grade school.

Some of the knobs are a little on the cheap feeling side, but I'm not afraid I'm going to break them or anything. The programming interface is actually pretty easy to use once you figure out which buttons to press. You just enter edit mode, tweak the control you want to assign then use the simple menu to tweak params like channel etc for it. It took about 5 mins to figure it all out and setup my two cc foot pedals and sustain. The dial is a little strange because the mechanical "clicks" on it don't seem to line up with where they're detected and sometimes you skip a number, but this really isn't a big deal as you only use it to set things up.

I'm using the USB MIDI interface and have yet to have a stuck note as some have complained about. I think they've fixed this in their firmware.

The keys themselves are way better than the keystation. They're going to take some getting used to 'cause I'm used to the Yamaha's weighted keys. I think it will make things easier on me in the long run though because my hands don't wear out as quickly on fast arpeggios. I had to tweak the velocity curve in my software a bit to get it just right for me to make it more sensitive. I don't think there's an adjustment on the board itself. One thing I may not adjust to is the length of the key in relation to its pivot point. If you play on the lower half of the key you don't really notice, but if you play the top half like I often do when playing classical you're playing really close to the pivot point so you don't have nearly as much leverage and it becomes very difficult to control the velocity accurately. The pivot point for my Yamaha is much farther up so you can accurately control the velocity from any point on the key.

It satisfies all my requirements in my initial post except the integrated drum pad which really wasn't necessary at all. This thing will make my life much easier to carry around and I don't need any extra cables/adapters to run it, just plug my pedals into it, and it into my computer w/ USB. no power supply or anything. Before I had a USB->Midi, USB hub, power, MIDI cable, 4 port pedal->USB and it was just a mess.

Interesting.

Does it have full size keys, or shorter keys like the keystation? The two big problems I'm having with the keystation are:

1) The short keys. Especially when I play "on the top" (as you say) of the blacks keys, they sometimes don't really trigger a note because there's so little travel there.

2) The keyboard really pushes hard against my fingers. I prefer a non-weighted keyboard that's lighter than this. The keystation seems like it's constantly fighting with me in an attempt to prevent me from pressing down the key.

Really interested in the VMK-88+ - thanks for the review.

I've got a Roland A-33 but thinking of selling it, as it sends out reverb and chorus level messages whenever you change program or layer (which is a pain).

I don't suppose (long shot this) that anyone has ever played both a VMK-88+ and A-33 or similar, and could comment on the keyboard actions?

I used an A-33 for years. That's the kind of non-weighted keyboard that I prefer. I haven't tried the VMK-88+, but I can definitely tell you that the KeyStation 88es is nothing at all like the A-33. The 88es pushes hard against your finger throughout the entire travel. Plus, it doesn't have full size keys like the A-33. If you play with a light touch, this is disasterous. It's hard to avoid playing toward the top of the black keys (because they're so short), and there's so little travel there, and it pushes so hard against your touch, that the key sometimes doesn't even trigger.

In order to play the 88es, you need to play like a neanderthal holding a rock in his fist. It's not a keyboard for someone who wants to play light and fast.

Sorry haven't used an A-33, but I can tell you the keys on the VMK-88+ don't push back very hard. I find them to be a really nice balance in that respect. I should add that I have fairly limited experience in keyboards.

Hhere's my VMK featured in my band's first music vid we just filmed and edited today:

I don't actually have the keystation handy to compare directly, but the visible portion of the keys seem to have the same physical dimensions as my Yamaha P80, and I haven't been fat-fingering the keys, but as I confusingly tried to say in my earlier post they don't seem to go back as far into the chassis making it difficult to play near the chassis as you describe, so I think that's what you're talking about with shorter keys, if so then yes.