When using multiple keyboards via a mixer to PA do I need a DI box

what do most multiple keyboard players do... DI out of the mixer to P.A. or individual DIs for each keyboard?Or will a good mixer suffice?

It depends, but since you're asking the answer is almost certainly to submix and use a DI to send to FOH (just one DI, for mono). For monitors, you either rely on what FOH can provide (which at the bottom rung circuit, usually sucks) or you use your own.

The problem with sending individual keyboards is that it makes more work for FOH, and at the bottom rung circuit I'm on, the less you have FOH do, the better off you are. It also means that you're not hearing your mixed product in your monitors, but if FOH is really good, that shouldn't matter.

The downside to submixing your keys is that FOH will often turn keyboards down if the volume gets a bit out of hand for a moment, but often won't turn it back up. Add to that the typical grunt FOH rule which is "the more guitars and less keyboards, the better", and you won't be heard at all. The downside when FOH is really good is that you can't hear what you sound like in the house, and what sounds like a good mix in your monitors might not be the best out front.

If I sound critical of FOH, it's only from experience, but with the admission that there are a lot of good ones too, and always much appreciated. It's a tough job in many ways.

I remember watching a Cyndi Lauper show from very close to FOH. She had quite a crew, with two on sound and one on lights IIRC. They had a script for each song with notation on what to do, and the crew knew the arrangements newarly as well as the musicians, knowing just when different instruments would come in and drop out, and pulling channels out of the mix when the instruments weren't being played. Something on the board was almost always moving. Must be nice to have a sound crew like that! Too bad Ms. Lauper was far less professional than her crew, appearing 2 hours late to the show even though she was on site the whole time.

^^^ I find FOH HATES guitars, I am primarily a guitar player but I also play keys/drum machine. My biggest problem is when I DI my keys, I can never hear it in my monitors, I swear everytime I play, it's as if they only put my keys in the monitor for soundcheck.

Anyways, what I do now is run all my keys through a little mixer, it sums everything to a stereo mix. The reason I like doing this is that I have control over my keys/drum machine mix, I have an effects loop where I can use one pedal loop on all my keyboards, and I have a personal monitoring system via headphone out if I need it. This is also good for my drummer, I can hook up a wireless headphone system to it, so he can always hear the drum machine if he ever decides to play to it.

You don't need DI's for every keyboard, but only for the stereo mix coming out of the mixer, which every sound guy should have at the venue.

If you can throw all your synth modules, effects and mixer into a hardcase or pedalboard, this also saves you a {censored} ton of time setting up, just plug in your power, your midi and stereo out and you have an arsenal of synths, samplers, drum machines and effects in a snap.

Depending on the mixer and synth, the summing may effect the tone and frequencies of your gear. I've yet to notice a huge difference, but it's definitely there.

Enlighten me FOH?

u could get mixer that has XLR out and also line outs. so it can cater for all kinds of stage setups

FOH = Front of House = the mix that is intended for the audience.

Whether or not you need a DI depends upon the type of mixer that you have. If you mixer has XLR outs, you probably don't need a DI, unless there is a ground loop issue that causes Hum. What kind of mixer do you have?

There is a lot of good info here, but I think some of the answers are somewhat ahead of the original question. It isn't clear if he has a mixer or not, or if he is talking about PAs in clubs or a rehearsal room PA.

To the original poster - I can only tell you that I prefer to run my keyboards into a mixer and send a stereo feed to the PA, no matter where I am. My little mixer only has 1/4" outputs, so I have two DIs to connect XLR cables to the PA mixer. If it is a mono PA, I pan the keys to one side and use one DI.

I also have my own powered monitor(s).

keybdwizd, own powered monitor for own use? what size/wattage ?

oh and if the mixer has "Balanced out" but no XLR, all you need is a pair of Stereo 1/4 to Male XLR adapter for few bucks

Thanks Keyrick,thats good news, I have a Mackie 1202 VLZ3 ... XLR out to the PA,I also use a Furman PC which usually works great and a HUM-X when theres a ground hum which eliminates it most of the time. If I dont need the DIs thats awesome, just saves more money.

purpose of di is to convert signal to low z balanced audio via xlr out, so yeah your mixer has that

I was going to say NO because most mixers have a balanced set of outputs. It's just a matter of the cable and necessary signal level.

Get a cheap DI box and hook it up like it matters, then use a REALLY LOUD KEYBOARD AMP on stage and just nod and smile when the FOH soundman asks you to turn down. Works like a charm.

It's a common misconception that a mixer's balanced outputs can go straight into the PA, with no questions asked. You do NOT want to plug a line output into a low-Z mic input without a DI, even if the line output is balanced and has an XLR connector.

A typical DI box serves all these purposes:

1) converting from unbalanced to balanced. Balanced lines pick up less hum, which is important for long cable runs (over 20 feet or so).

2) converting from high impedance to low impedance.

3) separating grounds, which helps to avoid ground loops, which cause buzz or hum.

4) adapting from 1/4" to XLR

Note that there are other things also called DI boxes (e.g., instrument preamps), and I'm not talking about those here. I'm talking about the typical stage DI box, which is a high-unbalanced to low balanced device (most of which are passive and work in either direction.)

Using line-level balanced XLR mixer outputs solves 1 and 4, but does not address 2 and 3. #3 is often not a problem. In general, it's only an issue when there are other problems and shouldn't happen with properly designed and used balanced line. However, in practice, we find it often IS a problem. Most DI boxes have a switch to lift ground or to connect it, and one way often has less buzz than the other.  For this purpose, "try and see" is fine -- if there's buzz, and it's caused by ground loops, a DI will fix it.

#2 is the confusing one.  It used to be that line outputs had a "minimum load-impedance" or "maximum-load impedance", two terms that sound opposite but mean the same thing: it's the lowest impedance number allowed for the load (but "higher loads" have lower impedances, thus the apparent contradiction).

Anyway, those older line outputs would fail if plugged into low impedance outputs, because the low impedance would draw too much current.  However, we don't see that spec for modern gear.  The implication must be that they're now more robust.  Of course, there has to be a limit, but if it's fine down to 600 ohms, it's good for any normal audio uses, and we don't need to worry about #2.

For older gear, though, #2 might be an issue.  Of course, it's only an issue for snake channels plugged into mic inputs.  Most are, but a lot of venues have channels set aside for line level gear.

sooo... even when using a mixer w/XLR outs or Balanced output as a submixer for your multiple keyboard rig - you STILL advocate the need for a DI box - - I can't just run from my Main Outs on the mixer straight to XLR L/R on the FOH mixer?

btw - great answer from The Pro, as usual!

morty77's mixer, a 1202 VLZ3, has a switch on the main outputs to set the level either to "+4" or to "Mic" level. He needs to set the switch accordingly. He may need a DI to remove any ground loop conditions.

Excellent post. But I'll add that often there are several lines in the snake set aside for line level, balanced low impedance signals coming from the stage, such as might be found on a sub-mix output. Check with the FOH guy.

Hello - thanks so much for all of this info. A quick clarification if possible: I am running a keyboard, synth, drum machine, mpc, guitar and two vocal mics through an on-stage mixer (yet to perform, but have the set up at home). The mixer is a Behrenger QX1204 with balanced 'mic' outputs. The guitar is fed through an on stage amp's pre-out.

Firstly, do you think I will need a DI, and secondly, if so, at which point? Will it be enough to line out of the mixer and run through a stereo DI to front of house? Or will I need to have a DI for each unbalanced signal before it gets to the mixer?

Sorry for the newb question, I've usually just been a guitarist and I just want it to be alright on the night!

Thanks in advance.

Kurt