why do people think dream theater are bad song writters?

maybe you guys can help.

i always get {censored} from people who say "dream theater are great at their insturments, but they are {censored}ty songwriters".

no one can never tell me how they are {censored}ty songwritters.

i personally love their music, and thats enough for me.

if anyone here thinks that they are bad songwriters, could you please explain why?

A lot of people seem to feel that a good song has a "formula"

Easily singable with easily recognizable melody. A chorus you can sing along with. No extended instrumental excursions.

DT (for the most part) does not ascribe to that formula. They write great songs, but not songs for everyone. Sometimes their lyrics are sub-par but their musical/melodic ideas, arranging skills, and overall musicianship are superior.

Great "formula" song from DT is "Pull Me Under" if you ignore the slightly extended solo sections.

I agree with the formula thing, but what really gets me are some of the lyrics. They are often really cheesy and cliche. I cringe when I listen to some of the stuff on Falling Into Infinity.

nothing they do really does it for me. I can admire guys playing well- and doing things with arrangements that are interesting. but I don't care to listen to it unless it gets me in the gut- and none of their lyrics and primary melody lines do that. also- there's players in every city that can do much of the solo work they do. that said- they deserve credit for being unique as a group of good players.

on the flipside, soundgarden was very mathmatical- but they made it sound simple- and cornell's lyrics and delivery lead the songs. two different bands- but it's a fair comparison, and a good study in the contrasting methods of bands that are mathmatical and of the metal ilk-----the results speak for themselves.

/johnny

You know it's all just a matter of opinion. I have been playing guitar for 30 yrs non-stop and Dream Theater is one of the few bands these days that really satisfies me. I usually listen to their CD's several times a week. I have no complaints about their music. IMHO they are excellent song writers and musicians.

Another thing that people usually concider with good song writing is if it doesn't seem random, when one things to another. I am not sure if I would concider DT bad song writers but I have heard plenty of hardcore bands that are terrible song writers just throwing one riff togeather with another one and then oh yeh, here's another cool thing we like, lets put it here. Yes I know thats the hardcore thing to do but I think they could probably do a better job of it.

I think it's kind of a self preservation/rationalization thing that got born in the early 90s where dismissing musical prowess by insulting the songwriting elevated the supposed songwriting by barely competent players. I've heard it repeated so many times I don't even listen to it anymore. Once a band has a reputation for being able to play, the "it's all about the song" excuse makers come out in force.

-wp

but writing songs has little to nothing to do with being an exceptional player. nor do hits generally hinge on one 'great performance'. hits are created by lyrics melody AND the performance.

generally when a band's calling card is: "we are great players. we know how to do difficult things"- it just means they really don't have songs that work for most people. if you're a good player I say find the best song-writer you can and make them better (not vice versa). but if you're too arrogant to work for the better of a song you deserve what you have coming to you: performances full of self-gratification and likely little to no connection with your audience. there are a few exceptions, of course.

/johnny

Honestly I think John Petrucci is one of the best living songwriters. Instrumentally (State of Grace/ When the Water Breaks from LTE) or in a vocal context - Spirit Carries On or Misunderstood. from Dream Theater's recent albums.

The thing is that he's getting better folks. He has not hit his stride yet, and that's frightening. Also Portnoy's lyrical technique is improving dramtically, as is LaBrie's. Myung also is a pretty good lyricist.

As far as arrangements go, they are pretty much the cream of the industry along with Spock's Beard. And nobody can fault their technical prowess.

LMAO!!!! In TEARS

How so?

Are you laughing at the thought of Petrucci as a great songwriter ? Maybe, I ought to rephrase. He's a composer. Both he and Rudess write in the more compositional sense. They create mulifacted, evolutionary, dynamic music.

I'm actually less impressed with DT as "technicians" than as great songwriters. They apply a more "classical" approach to their music where they get involved in point/counterpoint or discursion and reversion or taking off on harmonic excursions. That they utilize their performance techniques to the fullest only when needed (as opposed to all the time) is frosting. It simply means that they can take their music places that nobody has ever seen before.

Truer words have nay been spoken

I consider Dream Theater to be prolix and superfluos in most cases, actually losing the focus of the songs every time they get engaged in the so called "pointless digressions".

And when it comes to writing simpler, more pop-oriented songs, I've only heard weak and uninspired compositions, even if, to be honest, the flat and unexpressive vocal approach of Mr. LaBrie does nothing to make things better.

Except for a few remarkable exceptions, Dream Theather remain a patinated overrated rock band.

On one thing I agree: Mr. Petrucci is the only one over there to have some real musical talent, though not always served and exploited wisely.

The others are just clowns. Great for a circus, not really for emotional music.

Bah, you know, opinions.

The main problem I have with Dream Theater are the lyrics. And that's mainly just the last two albums. The lyrics on Awake were excellent. I think all the other aspects of their songs are great except for some moments on their latest album.

i agree that they are great musicians.. and im sure the way they write songs is appealing.. but it is not pleasing to my ear. i find it pointless to go off on harmonic excursions like that.. i think you lose more of the audience and the meaning of the song. however, im sure many people enjoy it.. its just not my preference

I can't believe people have justified "Barely Competent Players" as song writers for years. I mean how can people call Hank Williams, Bob Marley, John Lennon, Bob Dylan,Johnny Cash, Neil Young, Springsteen, Ray Davies, etc good songwriters. Petrucci would run circles around those guys when it comes to skill & theory, therefore he is a better songwriter.

-PFB

What is that...sarcasm I smell cookin' there!?

I like yer style.

LMAO AGAIN!!! IN TEARS!!!!

Ha ha. Sarcasm is always a big plus.

Especially when you don't have a point to make.

-wp

I made a point - Dream Theater are better songwriters than people who can barely play guitar. Guitar hacks like Bob Dylan, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash couldn't fill Petrucci's shoes.

-PFB

all i can say is dont knock it if you can't play it. Go see dream theater live, they are an INCREDIBLY tight band in all aspects may I add, and they put alot of time and effort into their music, even more so then all these {censored} players on mtv and the radio, just because you dont like their music doesnt mean they are not good. To say they aren't good is rediculous!

"Don't knock it if you can't play it" - don't knock Johnny Cash as a "Barely Competent player" until you write a song like "I Walk The Line". Let me hear Dream Theater write a song like Proud Mary, All Along The Watchtower, I saw The Light, or any number of great songs that people will still listen to in 200 years, even if it only took 3 or 4 chords to write it.

Hey lets not jump to conclusions, No where did i say anything about the classics not being talented. . . . now did I ?

Actually, the DT fans get WAY into those harmonic excursions as they intruduce a greater complexity. Sort of like a Classical fan getting deep into the Art of Fugue or being able to appreciate the building structure of a Beethoven symphony.

Not to say that that doesn't put off some people, but everyone I've know who puts in the effort to listen to DT has come away enjoying it.

Like I've said before, it's not passive music (classic rock/pop songwriting and nothing wrong with it) it's active music, more in the tradition of Beethoven and Miles Davis. Just a different approach.