Does phrasing make melody?

Or does melody make phrasing?

I think the former... I'm working on one now that is less organic than they usually are, so I'm observing the process more closely... I have the basic idea, chords, story, and melody? So I get a verse, and I play it and sing it, then again tomorrow? And it's a little different... Then again the next day? And it's a little different. That's not how it works for me. The melody and phrasing should "jump out at you like a man in a rain coat..." BAM! Yes officer, I can describe it...

So as a result, I've been sculpting it slightly? And it's only the 1st f'ing verse in to the hook :-( But I think I at least have that now.

I'm just curious? Does phrasing make the melody? Or does the melody make the phrasing? Or are they protons and anti-protons? For me, it's all about making the phrasing work with the melody. Phrasing, phrasing, phrasing. Everybody loves Phrasure? Set phrasures on stun. Are you hurt? I wasn't even phrased?

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Let me re-phrase that...

I usually start out with a melody (like you) and I'm all like da da da dum dum dum, etc... So "technically" the melody does come 1st "of course" But then? Once you get the idea for the hook? For the title? And the message? I think phrasing takes over, and melody phollows close bephind... Phrasing controls "the mechanics" (and Mike).

Does the smile make the girl irresistible?

I've seen plenty of girls with great smiles that were appealing, but irresistible? Then that special one spots you from across the room, she's got something different. A lean, long body, a certain intelligence, clever style that speaks to your sense of fun, her eyes are cool blue sparkling ponds of light begging you to jump in...

...and then she smiles at you.

It wasn't just the smile. It was the whole combination of elements that made the girl irresistible. Her ability to effortlessly combine all these wonderful traits into an irresistible, thirst quenching glass of water for you to drink in.

By phrase, you mean rhythm? By melody you mean pitches? They go hand in hand and are equally important. Then rub the melody against inventive choices of harmony (chords)... and you've got something irresistible.

One does not exist without the other. The better they synergize into a fresh statement, the more potent the result becomes.

Sometimes they appear without effort and sometimes we sculpt them.

I just have one thing to say. Yes.

"I've seen plenty of girls with great smiles that were appealing, but irresistible? Then that special one spots you from across the room, she's got something different. A lean, long body, a certain intelligence, clever style that speaks to your sense of fun, her eyes are cool blue sparkling ponds of light begging you to jump in..."

Holds hands up above belly, palms in, cupping them and says, and a really nice set of (pause) "HANDS!"

I guess what I mean is I had the melody and wrote words to it, but it wasn't flowing "rhythmically" the way I wanted it to? So I kept tweaking it to get the phrasing better? And once the phrasing was how I wanted it, and of course, the words were modified to phit the phrasing? Those large, smooth "hands" were in sight... (raises eyebrows, swallows hard). I think it's 90% done now, I just need a good break where I wrote "Break", I don't like what I have now... Not "hand worthy..." Maybe I need a hand maiden? Or a job with my hands? You know, a good hands job?

well, i listen to a lot of dylan, so i realize they can both be amorphous.

Yeah I think someone on this site said "music is poetry + math?" Or something like that. So the phrasing is part of both I guess, the music and the beats are the math, and the words and the phrasing are the poetry, but the phrasing is also part of the math, because it's part of the beats and the cincopation (especially when sung in Spanish). It really is a special thing that we do? Those of us who do this? People who don't or cannot do it, seriously stand in awe of our ability to do so.

it's syncopation, like in sync. unless you're in 5/4 time and singing in spanish. then i guess cincopation would be appropriate.

Ok, then why don't they call it "synco de mayo?" Damn my logical mind!

I write words first a lot. I've found the rhythm of the word choices often dictates the melody and chord choices. It's interesting.

I very seldom write words first.

Instead I tend to start with a melody........a tune....some chords that turn me on. If that gets a song going then I start working up some words......and some phrasing. Of course there are those special songs that just are there for the taking...........but.........

When it has all simmered for a while I work hard to get the phrasing of my lyrics to make the original melody work even better.

So.......I'd say that the melody makes the song, but carefully crafted phrasing puts the melody in that 'pocket' that the listener can groove to.

I agree 100% with this!

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Like Max, words tend to drive melodic rhythm for me, with chords both supporting and informing the melody...

Honestly, it all kind of emerges to some extent for me. I mean, when it's all working right, it just comes flowing out, pretty much pre-written and I can just usually kind of clean up a couple things and sit back in amazement and satisfaction -- even as in my heart of hearts I feel like I didn't really have much to do with it all. (I known more than a few of you know the feeling.)

It's really part of why I have to have a chord instrument in or under my hands when I'm writing... I need to hear the harmonic foundation.

In fact, in many cases, I only tend to remember the melody in relation to the chords. So, without the chords under me, it can be a bit of a stretch for me to fully recreate a melody that I typically don't think twice about when playing.

For me.... I think its a little bit of both.... I usually write the music and lyrics at the same time..

I'd say it's more "protons and positive charge"--or, they're not really separable. A temporal sequence of pitches is going to have some phrasing, and it's a melody (even if just counterpoint and/or voice leading). They go hand-in-hand.

It seems that there's some confusion over whether you were referring to words with "phrasing". That's not what I was thinking of. There is musical phrasing--the pitches of a melody have a form, a flow to them, part of which is the rhythm and whether you're playing (or singing) the pitches more legato, staccato or in-between, and part of it is the intervallic structure of the melody.

If you're talking about words, then sure, sometimes you'll need to modify a melody to fit the words--or modify the words to fit a melody. In musical terms, though, the words are really just a timbral component of the melody--particular phonemes that give the melody different soundwave characteristics, although they can also affect phrasing due to some phonemes being difficult or even impossible to sing legato, for example.