The Ethics of Stealing Lyrics

Some say that the good borrow, but the best steal. What do you think of that?

I was writing a song the other day and I came to the chorus and I couldn't think up any line that would fit the place. Nothing that would do justice at least. Then I thought back to a poem of Dylan Thomas that I had read earlier in the day, the title "The Light Breaks Where No Sun Shines." A perfect fit for my chorus.

Now before you go bashing me, remember A LOT of the greats stole a lot of their lyrics. The prime example being Bob Dylan, any song off his first three albums you could pick out where he took each line, melody, lyric from.

Now heres the song I wrote and tell me what you think

The Light Breaks (Where No Sun Shines)

I can never take the time to be reminded

Of everyone I once knew

If I can ever find a little peace and quiet

Maybe then I'll think up something new

Some people will tell you

they got a lot of things on their mind

Well, me, I can't help but think of

One thing at a time

And sometimes the light breaks

Where no sun shines

I've never really appreciated

Ever idea I've had in my mind

Situations never recreated

Don't miss what's come to you this time

Some people will tell you

The day don't have enough time

Me, I can't figure out

what to do with all of mine

And sometimes the light breaks

Where no sun shines

This world is far more strange and complex

than we could have ever wished

Life and Death can't be as simple

As a little flick of the switch

Some people will tell you

there's nothing higher than the sky

Well any friend who tells you that

well they're no friend of mine

Sometimes the light breaks

Where no sun shines

Let me know what you think of the lyrics!

I wouldn't even think about this long enough to post about it. Go for it.

I don't know about every line (in those first three Dylan albums -- for that matter I think there are only two originals on the first album) but he certainly borrowed some elements from long-established folk songs, although he tended to invert and twist things around in ways that made the borrowings seem new again. One example is his taking the form and melody of "Lady Franklin's Lament" and turning it into "Bob Dylan's Dream." (Great analysis of that in the Just Another Tune blog.) Another oft-cited example is the ballad, "Lord Randall"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Randall

I think the most important thing is to own up to the theft bravely and shamelessly -- be proud you stole from Dylan Thomas -- and not Lady Gaga, or, heaven forfend, Britney Spears.

And, better to be like Dylan, who was influenced and drew from other folkies and their finds and favorites to create some of his works -- than some others.

Here's what Martin Carthy wrote about Dylan and his version of "Scarborough Fair" as told in the Just Another Tune post linked above:

Compare that to fellow American, Paul Simon, who begged Carthy to teach him the song (which he reportedly did at great length -- Carthy was dismissive of Simon in a television documentary when asked about it, suggesting that Simon was far from a quick study) -- only to find Simon and his then partner Art Garfunkel claiming sole copyright on a version that he and partner Art Garfunkel recorded (and had a big hit with) with that drew heavily on Carthy's work in resurrecting the old song (but added unrelated elements of a Garfunkel original anti-war song called "Side of a Hill" which he renamed "Canticle").

http://www.torvund.net/guitar/index.php?page=Scarborough_unfair

That last is a bit of an understatement. Simon was widely derided in English folk circles for what many in the scene saw as his high-handed treatment of Carthy, who long refused to discuss it publicly but finally opened up in a television documentary on the 60's UK folk scene some years back. Carthy seemed torn between a desire to let the 4 decade old controversy slide and what seemed genuine hurt and bitterness that someone he had been so kind to would rip him off so boldly. Simon has claimed that his publisher was the one that made all the money -- but his excuse mollified few in the British folk scene old enough to remember.

Hey, I was just thinking about this the other day when I came across the brand new britney spears single "Hold it Against Me"

This is what MTV says about the single:

The main hook is "If I said I want your body now, would you hold it against me?"

There's a 1979 country song "If I Said You Have a Beautiful Body Would You Hold It Against Me" by the Bellamy Bros.

The bellamy bros were thinking of suing Spears but they dropped it.

If I were in that camp I don't know if I would have dropped it so quickly as long as I found a copywright lawyer who would do it pro bono.

OTOH, I don't know if stealing one line should be considered stealing, especially a line that is a common expression. Granted, I've never asked - nor would I ever ask - a nubile female, "Sugar, would you hold it against me if you I told you had a beautiful body?" but I can almost guarantee the Bellamy Bros probably DID NOT invent that phrase.

Also, would you consider stealing a line from Shakespeare and putting it in a song stealing (like "Conscience does make cowards of us all" could be updated to "consciences makes cowards of us" in a song)? I think in that case most people would call it "paying homage to the master" rather than stealing, but if you were to steal a line from a hit in the 90s, it would be considered theft. Funny how time works.

Dylan Thomas? I'd pick Dylan, Danny Thomas hasn't done anything in a much longer time. Of course, that may make his stuff easier to pirate? Lower profile? Hummmm. Oh and any of you (redacted) steels my stuff? And I'll (redacted)

Danny Thomas was a songwriter and singer, however, as Robby suggests. Among other songs, he's credited with "Te Sei Bella Signorina," recorded by none other than Dean Martin.

Of course, I'm familiar with the old one liner, which goes way, way back. (I'm thinking the 1930's at least.)

But I'd totally forgotten the Bellamy Brothers song until just now. I can see why they didn't sue -- they would not have got very far, since I don't think there's much else that's the same and the joke that forms the supposed hook of both songs is much older than either -- but I would have been delighted if they had.

Spears -- or her team* -- have also used such amazingly dorky and worn-out phrases as "I've got you on my radar" and "You want a piece of me?" to build their seemingly guaranteed hits around... but this one really floored me. She must be stupider than her poodle.**

*Songwriting credit is often purchased outright from songwriters in the mainstream pop field -- it's a business thing, the famous singer's team goes to a writer and says, look, we want to do such and such of your songs, but we want to buy it outright [or possibly leave the actual composer's name on, which entitles them to a cut of the mechanical royalties]. Sometimes the writer won't go for it, but often they do, especially if they get to keep a slice of the royalties, since mechanicals from a big hit album often turn into a decades long revenue stream.

** I'm assuming she has a poodle. I've got nothing against poodles, mind you, at least not standards, which were originally bred as hunting dogs. I'm just figuring that Spears is the kind of person who has a poodle with a diamond collar worth enough to feed a small African nation for a year.

If I were in that camp I don't know if I would have dropped it so quickly as long as I found a copywright lawyer who would do it pro bono.

 

Can I come live on your planet? There isn't a lawyer in the universe who would handle a copyright (yeah, no w) case pro bono, since its a civil case with a monetary award. If you're lucky, your lawyer will do the case on contingency, and will take 30-40% off the top if you win. But you'll probably pay hourly.........pro bono - what a laugh!

What does this mean? That songwriters for stars like Speers actually BUY their songs from other songwriters?

well i don't go around suing people for the hell of it, and i'd never become a lawyer. so SORRY if my knowledge of the legal system isn't up to your standards.

I would imagine that a greasy lawyer might like the infamy attached to suing someone as high-profile as britney spears tho.

Great point!

Funny how a copyright term works.

A lot of time what happens on albums from big pop stars is they (usually the artist and his producer and key others) will buy into a song. With the profit structure a lot of albums have been set up under, a lot of the real money going forward is in the songwriting. A big star doesn't want to go to the trouble of making a song a hit without participating in the royalties going forward. So, if they find the 'perfect song' and it's, you know, already written, they offer to make it a hit -- for a cut of the songwriting. It's been done more or less forever. Obviously, there are a lot of different situations, but that's a pretty common one, particularly with centerpiece songs designed to be the hit of the album. Such songs are almost always guaranteed lots of promotion and an afterlife on greatest hits records and compilations. The labels have a lot of ways of keeping money out of the hands of artists -- but the rights of songwriters are written into statute.

"So, if they find the 'perfect song' and it's, you know, already written, they offer to make it a hit"

www.reverbnation.com/rockinrobby

You give me 20 bot, I sing for you long time!

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Andy Hardy cracks the "if I said you had a beautiful body" line in one of the 30's or early 40's Andy Hardy movies. He was, of course, the archetypal fresh kid.

From Andy Hardy to Britney Spears.

It was corny -- intentionally so -- when small town would-be teen lothario Mickey Rooney cracked it as Andy Hardy in '39 or whenever.

What's scary is that Britney and/or her team probably think it's, you know, cutting edge. Now. With it.

I don't really know the whole story, but the link you provided says:

"Then back to Scarborough Fair. As so often, it turned out that it was the record company and the publisher, and not the young artist who was too blame. Nevertheless, the relation between Paul Simon and Martin Carthy was a bit tense until they reconciled in year 2000. Before a London concert, Paul Simon called Martin Carthy and invited him to sing Scarborough Fair as a duet with him. They sorted everything out, and Martin Carthy joined Paul Simon on stage."

And here they mention on question 35:

http://www.lesession.co.uk/umf/umf_faq.htm#fairs_fair

"Did Paul Simon steal the song 'Scarborough Fair' from Martin Carthy?

No. Paul Simon learnt the song from Martin Carthy, and went on to have a massive worldwide hit with it - but Paul Simon has never claimed authorship, nor collected a writer's royalty on the song. The source for this is Martin Carthy himself, in a letter to fRoots (no. 254/255, August/September 2004)."

I don't know if the back issues are available here:

http://www.frootsmag.com/

Haha I was definitely thinking of Girl from the North Country! And personally when I see a "borrowed" line, I get a good excitement out of just making the connection.

It's pretty fun.

What do you guys think of the lyrics though?

It's my favorite I've written so far. I find a hard time writing about anything other than 'silly love songs.'

this one is another beast. what do you guys think?

But btw I'm also a bigggg Paul Simon fan... one of my favorite songwriters...

Perhaps adding to the fact that I like seeing annnn allusion

Maybe we just like things we've already seennnnn..

I'll just add this link for anyone interested in more Paul Simon stuff.

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=9391&pagenum=3

I found it fascinating. I tried to meet Bob Dylan twice when he was on tour in Mexico years ago, and both times I ran into Los Lobos. Each time I just walked up to them and we started talking. Very nice guys. Never got to meet Dylan, though. I am a bit of a Paul Simon fan, but if what has been said is true then the guy is an asshole!

Well... you only heard one side of the (Scarborough Fair) story from me. And Simon did write some legitimately great songs (I think "The Boxer" is a great song, for instance).

One thing I should have mentioned is that, according to one source, Simon invited Carthy on stage in 2000 to join him in Scarborough Fair, which, according to that source, healed the wound. I'm maybe more than a little skeptical -- I saw the video interview with Carthy, which was probably before that in the 90s, and he didn't seem like he'd be all that easy to mollify --although he seemed embarrassed to even be talking about it. (He'd basically remained publicly silent before that, AIUI, although others had spoken up for him.)

But one can see it as a sin of youth (although it has to be remembered that Simon had been working as one of the "Brill Building" writers before going to England) and I don't think that should be enough to undercut your affection for the works Simon is responsible for or giving him just props for them.

And, let's not forget, it wasn't like Carthy wrote the song. It was traditional (although the British folkies of the era tended to invest a lot in their individual arrangements, chords and melodies in their versions -- I've compared a number of recordings and things really changed from one person's version to the next at times).

Also, I'll bet anything that the publishing company was never going to cut in someone else (and so cut themselves out to some extent, since they owned half of S&G's songwriting) on what they could legally justify as a rearrangement of a traditional song with original material.

As long as you own up to it, I see it as a nod to the poem and not so much theft

Paul Simon wrote the countermelody ("Canticle") to Scarborough Fair, which would justify him claiming a writing credit.

This. It's a fine line between theft and homage, sometimes, but I'd probably err on the side of artistic freedom.

Musicians have a long history of reworking each others' tunes. Johnny Cash did it, Public Enemy did it, the Beastie Boys did it, Woodie Guthrie did it, every blues artist ever did it, etc. etc, etc. It's nothing new.

I don't know about the lyrics, but Coldplay sure stepped in it deep with Satriani over this one:

[video=youtube;UvB9Pj9Znsw]

Not if you take the whole thing and not if it's someone else's property. If it is public domain, that's different or if you have permission to use it.

Using a line or a phrase or something like that is also different. But if you use a full chorus or verse then usage and credit should be negotiated.

This is different too than doing someone else's full song in your own style.... This thread started out about stealing LYRICS so that's what I'm referring to.