Mics and preamps

Hello, folks.

First post, though I've been a frequent reader for a while. I appreciate the tremendous resource these forums are.

To be quick, I need some advice/input on some purchasing decisions. I'm a singer (male) with a bit of a thinner voice, though I have good volume. I'm currently using a combination of Blueberry / KSM44 / 57 through a Focusrite Tonemaster to MOTU 896 to TI Powerbook running DP. Not entirely my ideal sound, though usable.

I've not used any tube gear in the past, and have not had the chance to really try out anything decent. I suspect that the recorded sound of my voice might benefit from a decent tube mic or preamp. Any suggestions as to what combinations might be the best bang for around 2k?

One more. I'm pretty happy with drum sounds (good kit) in a decent space using kick, room kick, snare, and 2 overheads. I find though that on some songs I want a little help on the toms. Any suggestions on decent tom mics? Also, does anyone know what clip-on tom mics are commonly used in big name live shows?

Thank you so much for your time.

For mounted tom mics I like the sennheiser e604's. About $315 or 325 for a 3-pack. I've used them for a year or two now, and think they're great. Tiny things, they don't take up much space at all. I was talking to a engineer friend of mine, and one his clients chimed in. He runs sound at some big chicago venue that uses them, and they absolutely love them there.

What are you not liking about the sound? If you can more closely describe A) what you presently find lacking; and B) in what direction you would like to point the texture of the tone... then maybe some worthwhile advice can be rendered...

Thank you for your replies.

What I don't like about the vocal sound is that it sounds thin and a little shrill to my ears. Like I said, my voice sounds like that to begin with. I can tell when I hear my spoken voice through the sound system I use at church, or when I hear my voicemail greeting.

I believe that what I find lacking is warmth without the sound being boomy. I use very little eq normally on any tracks because I try to find the sounds I like to start with. But on vocal, I find myself reaching for eq all the time. The end result is always either boomy (cutting higher mids) or even thinner when I just get lost in the frequencies.

By the way, Fletcher, I used a lot of the ideas you had on drum miking, and I find that I've gotten good results. Thanks.

On the subject of tom mics, I do use the Sennheiser e602 on kick, and I like it very much. Would the 421s be a better choice on toms than the 604 for a full, round tom sound?

Thanks.

I'd say a Blueberry is the polar oppisite of the mic you need unless you stay an inch or less from it while singing. Maybe try singing through a ribbon?

As far as tube pre's, I've had excellant results with this one:

http://www.mercenary.com/vtspecmered.html

I own two BLUE Blueberries. I originally bought one for use as a vocal mic, found that it was a better instrument mic, and bought another one for stereo instrument tracks

It is a useable vocal mic on certain singers (particularly a few female vocalists I've worked with, as long as they don't have to be right up against the mic) with high gain preamps where you can cut some highs. It's sort of prone to overload more so than their other mics. Your KSM44 sounds very good with preamps along the lines of the Grace Design stuff. If you can dish out a LITTLE more than $2k, maybe look into a Peluso 22 251 and a Vintech 1272, which will also come in handy for stereo instrument tracks. That'd be a no-brainer way to get some warmth without mud.

As for toms, the e604 three pack is a great value, but to my ears they wouldn't really compete with some MD421s lining your kit. The 421s also dominate guitar amps like nobody's business. Or you could get 3 MD421s and a Beyerdynamic M160 for guitar amps and be the ruler of the world.

Ok, thanks for the input. Let me complicate things a little. Let's say I need the following:

1. A good male vocal vocal mic. I assume tube would be a better choice for my thin(er) voice. Let's say between 1-2k.

Trying to get a warmer sound for rock styles (U2 comes to mind since they're one of my favorite bands, but I ain't no Bono. Maybe Coldplay.) I'm not really good at putting words to sounds, so I don't really know how to accurately describe the sound I'm looking for. If I try, though, I'd say it's a warm, clear sound with some breath and air in it, with some good thickness but not boomy or muddy or hazy, but not harsh and piercing either.

Looking for some flexibility, though, so that I can use the mic (or a matched pair) for room sound on drums, electric guitars, etc. Also for other vocals, male.

The Peluso 22 251 has been suggested. Why or why not and what else is out there comparatively? When I look at Mercenary's site, my head starts spinning.

2. A good tube preamp. Must be 2 channels. Also in the 1-2k range. Looking to use it on vocal as mentioned above, also on kick, snare, and electric guitar.

Drums, bass, and electric guitars (in the style mentioned above) are my main instruments. Keys are all VIs.

I've read other posts suggesting the DIY kits from Seventh Circle, but I'm looking at about 1k for 2 channels of the N72 and I have to put it together myself. Not sure it would be a good choice at this time.

I am considering the RNP as an additional transparent preamp, to use mostly on drums for room mics or overheads. I already have the RNC and I like it a lot, though I only use it sparingly.

3. Tom mics. I've got suggestions on 421s, e604s. Any other suggestions? I'm looking, mostly, to reinforce toms coming through overheads (KSM44s), although on some songs I would like to use a close mic approach.

I've never used 421s on electric guitar before. I was planning on using 57s until I can afford the Royers I've been hearing so much about. But I see the Beyerdynamics M160 is about half the price of the R121. Is it as robust or good sounding?

Thanks to any and all who take the time to read and respond. Fletcher and Phil, looking forward to any input.

2k for the mic and 2k for the preamp? I thought you were looking to spend 2k on the whole shebang. In that case...

Mics?

1) Peluso 22 47 Limited Edition with EF14 tube or my former suggestion of the 22 251, which is a steal for under a thousand bucks

2) Soundelux ifet7

3) Neumann M147

4) Lawson L47MP, or the Lawson L251 in sexy sexy gold if you can stretch it

5) BLUE Kiwi if you get a really colorful preamp

Pres?

Manley Dual Mono Mic Pre or the Presonus ADL600 if you can hear it first and it sounds really good.

Get at least two Beyerdynamic M160s and at least three Sennheiser MD421s.

Grace Design 101 is a better "transparent" pre than the FMR

At the festival I'm mixing this weekend I'm using Audix D-2's. Shure SM98's and Beta 98's are probably the most popular in major tours.

i've actually had a pretty big hardon for beta98s lately. i kind of ignored that mic's existance until very recently, and am pretty happy that i finally decided to check them out. very tight and focused sound.

I've got 8 of the SM98's, and they have held up with no problems for about 8 years now. I love them on toms, and often use them in the studio as well.

Okely dokely... now we're getting closer to the crux of the biscuit... I'd suggest you give a shot to something like a Coles 4038 with a Speck Electronis "5.0" pre-amp or if you can squeeze the budget another couple of db, then a Great River "ME-1NV"... and if the budget can really be stretched the MEQ-1NV [which is an ME-1NV and "EQ-NV" all in one channel strip... if after you try that you decide you would like something a tad brighter... then an AEA "R-84" or Coles 4040

[sorry I don't have an "official MFG. link" to the Coles stuff... and sending a couple of the links to the "Mercenary Edition" site was about as close to pimping as I felt comfortable doing... I don't send people to the M-A website from these boards... it's just a personal policy thing. Bad enough I'm a pimp and am recommending equipment... I really don't want to be a spamming dickhead and shoot people to our website. The best I have is a link to Independent Audio, one of the US distributors... as is "AEA/Wes Dooley"

Happy to be of service

Oh, don't hold back, Fletcher. If all people see is someone pimping gear, that's their problem. As far as I'm concerned, who better to ask about gear recommendations than the people that have access to a lot of gear and use it? Don't worry, I won't hold anyone responsible for my final choices. It's just that I really want to spend this money as wisely as I can for the long term.

And thanks to the rest of you. I'm checking out all your suggestions, and hopefully I'll get the chance to audition at least some of them.

What's the difference between the 1073 sound and the 1272 sound?

I'd rather get 2 channels of pre's rather than 1 channel strip of sorts so that I can do stereo recording.

Fletcher, why ribbon and not tube on the mic? I'm worried about the sound being too dark and mellow for one, and flexibility for the other. Would the Coles mics be robust enough on drums and electric guitar so that I wouldn't need to get an M160 or R121 as well? Maybe I should give my wife a heart attack and buy a matched pair of ribbons, matched pair of tubes, and about 8 channels of high-end pres, comps and eq's. Real funny. I'm not there yet. Thought I'd take it just one or two steps at a time.

Phil, what I meant on the M160 compared to the R121 is not so much are both great mics, but will the M160 be as robust on drums and electric guitars as the R121, given what people say about the R121, and is the difference in sound quality worth the price difference.

Also, I'm currently using the Sennheiser E602 on kick. I like it, but I think it hypes up the low end a lot. I was thinking of getting an RE20 for a different flavor. What do you guys think? Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

Another question: Lawson, Soundelux and Peluso were mentioned as far as tube mics go. All three make 47 and 251 replicas. Big price differences. Can anyone give me a meaningful comparison? Forget price range limits for now.

Thanks.

I'd say if you're looking for an exact replica, wait for the Telefunken USA mics to go down in price.

Wouln't say I'm looking for exact replicas at all. Sean, (I'm assuming that's your first name) you seem to be quite fond of the Peluso mics. What sold you on them, since I gather from other posts that you have some good mics in your locker? I'm just looking for comparisons. How do they compare in quality to the Soundelux or Lawson mics?

Thanks.

Compared to the Soundelux or Lawson, the Peluso wouldn't have as much "extreme depth", and the parts that make up the mic aren't QUITE what's inside the other two. the quality of construction is pretty equal though. the peluso has proven to be a bit more pleasant in certain applications, though, namely belting female vocalists and assorted percussion.

what sold me on the peluso? couldn't tell you, as i bought the first one completely blind (not really, i heard a sample on audiolot's website, but still, that's pretty blind). i took a thousand dollar chance and lucked out. and turned it into what is now a $4000 friendship. haha.

I'm going to go with Fletcher. The one device that made the biggest improvement in my recordings has been the Great River ME 1NV.

I've gotten substantial, unequivocal improvements in sound quality recording everything through this circuit. Not to mention that it has a few switches that can really flatter different microphones.

My previous Mic pres were a Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster, Mackieboard, Allen&Heath GL2200 and an Amek Angela. The Great River ME 1NV has been the best money I've spent so far.

Many thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread. You guys certainly helped with my homework. Again, I appreciate this forum.

If you're talking about a real 1073 vs. a real 1272... it will depend on how the 1272 was set up in terms of the application of gain... the 1272 is also missing one amplifier that you'll find in the 1073 which gives the 1073 the ability to apply more gain with less effort than the 1272. If the 1272 was set up the way most of the aftermarket 1272's I've seen have been setup [poorly], you'll get all kinds of unwanted, and in my opinion egregious, distortions that lack a musical nature... but hey, it's got the lightning bolt "N" on the faceplate so it's gotta be cool... right?

Now if you're talking about the 1073/1272 after market clone boxes... you're talking about a "variation on the theme" in the best case, and a {censored}ed up veiled piece of garbage in the worst case... there are a bunch, most I've tried to this point suck ass.

Because a toob mic isn't necessarily going to be "big" or "warm" or cool. There is no shortage of "marketing" mics that have toobs in them that are anything but big, or round or warm. Yeah, the internal temperature in the barrel of the microphone may go up a couple of degrees so the ambient air temperature surrounding the mic will be "warmer", but the sound of the unit will be lacking.

With a ribbon mic you'll usually get a mellower, rounder, smoother presentation. If you need a little "sparkle" to it, a little [like a db or two] 10 or 12 kHz shelf from a quality equalizer [like a Speck Electronics "ASC-T" can go a long way to getting the top to dance, shimmer, and breathe.

Then there are indeed some tube [notice the "u" and lack of "oo" in the word 'tube] mics that can give your audio a depth and dimension that is nearly unparalleled... generally, you're looking at an introductory price of $3k-ish for something like that... and it may still not be the right tool for the job

Sound too dark... a little dab of EQ as outlined above does wonders... "robust" enough for drums? Don't stick it in the hole in a kik drum head but other than that... I use ribbons 18"-2ft in front of kik drums fairly often... overheads? They work great.

Electric guitar... never a struggle... and while M-160's and R-121's are great for those applications, they're often not too shabby for things like vocals.

As for checking the things out in your studio... yeah, that's the only thing that matters. You don't need stereo pairs to check these things out in application, but you will need to have a selection, some time to waste, and several songs with which to check out the various mics in various applications to determine which will work best in your world on your music.

When ever you add A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G to your arsenal make sure that you try it in a myriad of applications and make sure that it fits your sense of aesthetic for your music.

I'm sitting 20 miles south of Boston recommending hardware to you when I have no idea of what you're trying to achieve with your music... so please, take all my bull{censored} with a huge bag of salt as well.

Best of luck with the search,

Peace.

That's gotta be the first time I've ever seen anyone write that!

~~~~~~~

Not much to add here at this time except to add to Sean Eldon's recommendation. The Lawson L251s definitely don't suck, so if $2400 doesn't blow the piggy bank, give it a test drive. I've got one of these and can't speak highly enough about it. Never fails to elicit giant grins and compliments on the sound when doing vocals.

I'm not in the market for any microphones (yeah, hard to believe), but if I were, I'd be especially interested in ribbons for drum overheads and guitar amps and the occasional vocal if I could pry the L251 from the vocalists who record here.

If you're on a pauper's budget, I believe that Peluso or whatever their name is have recently released a ribbon mic. No, I have no idea how good it is, but I doubt you're gonna be getting a Coles or Royer for $200.

It's amazing to me that nobody has pointed to the soundcard as a potential problem. The 896HD sounds good on its own but it'll thin out any external pre you run into it. I'd say get your mics up to snuff first & worry about the pre later, but, once you've gotten to later, don't think about adding a pre unless you're also going to either add a 2-channel converter (to run the pre into the 896's digital input) or swap out the 896 completely.