Accoustics for multiple rooms

ive already searched and i didnt get the answer to my question. i read eithan weiners accoustic write-up and still have some questions.

me and my friend are planning on converting a 2 piece detached garage into a studio. the bigger room we plan on for tracking drums and probably guitar. its 17.5' long 9' wide and 9' high. right now there is just carpet on all the walls including the floor and ceiling. so it sounds really dead. i was wondering what i should do to it. should i focus on sound proofing or should i focus on accoustics. i was thinking accoustics first and then soundproofing.

soooo. that in mind. i was thinking of removing all the carpet and getting some rigid fiberglass or rockwool and setting them up as bass traps in all the corners, and then making our own diffusers and setting them up? to me that is the best idea, but like i said i have no idea.

and then the other room we were thinking of using as the control room/ vocal booth. its slightly smaller than the other room. for thi room i was thinking of setting up fiberglass up on most of the walls. and maybe some on the celing. i heard somewhere not to put up diffusers in the control room because it makes the mixes sound more alive then they are when played back on the moniters, so im guessing ill avoid putting them up in that room.

please let me know your opinions. try to focus on placement and how much to use as i have no idea.

thanks.

The question you need to ask is:

Do I really need soundproofing?

To really effectively soundproof a room is a big undertaking, and is especially hard if you want the acoustics inside the room to be good as well.

Just get the room sounding good inside, then if the neighbors are complaining, start researching the soundproofing.

Oh, and DIY acoustic treatment is extremely cost-effective if you know what you're doing. Read Ethan's article until you can recite it from memory.

the acoustics inside are usually handled after the space is soundproofed because soundproofing usually requires some construction and adding mass to walls. Therefore, finishing the insides with treatments might be premature. Soundproofing is more costly, more difficult and takes some construction. Are you hearing the outside sounds when you're inside your studio? Would drum sounds leaking out annoy your neighbors? These are soundproofing concerns. I'd almost rather not have the neighbors complain first and then try to figure things out. Some things are best done pre-complaints and while you're building walls, etc. Best to head that off beforehand

How are the walls constructed?

Ceilings?

doors?

windows?

ventillation, heating/cooling?

as far as your control room, there are some standard things any control room needs, especially smaller ones; Bass trapping and reflection control around your monitoring area. When you say "fiberglass" what exactly are you meaning? Like rigid fiberglass? OC703 type panels? Diffusion in the sense of adding commercial diffusors may not be needed. Usually it takes a certain sized room for them to work. But having some diffuse surfaces may work. Stuff on the walls, boookcases, sofa, etc...regular type things can help.

definitely bail on the carpet, it's unhealthy and makes a room sound dead but only in the higher frequencies.

Soundproof, then acoustics. Basically to soundproof, you'll be building a room inside the room, and floating it. You can build that room to specifics for acoustic purposes.

sometimes, yes. Without knowing how the existing walls/rooms are constructed, building another wall could worsen the isolation at lower frequencies, the exact ones that you're trying to contain. Besides, 9' width is pretty narrow already.

ok let me rephrase this. i couldnt give a crap about soundproofing for now. i just want a nice sounding live room for drums. soundproofing would just be the icing on the cake cause i doubt we are going to be tracking any later than 7 or 8 at night. and since its detached and theres only neighbors on one side and its the opposite side it doesnt really matter.

as far as sounds leaking in there might be a little leakage from the cars, but not enough to hear. ive never heard them before but a super sensitive overheads might pick up a little.

that can always be fixed ;later when the acoustics are sounding niiice though.

its a wood frame. then insulation and then sheet rock. pretty thin walls though.

i meant rigis fiberglass. like that owens-corning or equivalent stuff.

your wish is my command.

so any advice on what i should do to make the rooms sound as acoustically perfect as possible based on placement and such. we were planning on making everything. we can always work on reducing sound later.

i dont think you read anything i posted.

i dont think this is an option for us. and for me id rather make the room sound really good but leaky than a soundproof but crappy sounding room.

Ok then.

I assume you basically have box-shaped, rectangular rooms. Not great but a lot of us contend with them on a regular basis. You already know you need bass trapping, good. You can't overdo the bass-trapping. It'll only make the room have that much more bass response. In order to save floor space the wall to ceiling junctions are a good place to start. Tricorners too. Then you'l have to try and break up the parallel surfaces without absorbing too much of the high end vs mids on down frequencies. In a 9' wide space you might have to err on the deader side rather than get any useful refections there. A drum kit will undoubtedly be fairly close to the walls. Upholstered 2-4" 703 panels on the side walls would probably do the trick. The Sonoflat Auralex panels are pretty good too, I don't mind those. what you want is to not really cover an entire wall but to space the panels so that if one is on a wall, it's opposing wall may not need one in the same location because the parallel surface has been broken. Make sense?

The ceiling will need some clouds. Again, some kind of suspended panel,maybe a few inches off the ceiling. Foam isn't the evil some make it out to be, it simply has it's place among the rest of the treatments. If you get any foam get the good stuff in at least 3", 4" better. You might look into a "poly" for some walls as well. it's almost like bending a thin piece of plywood out in a subtle arc(perhaps about 6-8" for a 4' panel) and mounting to the wall, maybe on a backer board first. a few of those makes for some simple diffusion. Take a look here: www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

perhaps Phil or Ethan can chime in with more suggestions..

Basic physics proves this wrong. More density, less leakage to the outside world.

It sure seems like it should be so. Density is but one aspect of a wall system. and not what I was referring to in my post.

It is basic physics I'm referring to. If the existing walls were already built and had an outside skin(plywood, drywall, etc.) and an inside skin, adding another wall adds another "leaf" to the wall system making a 3 leaf wall( one where the back side of the furthest inside wall is open to the air), or even worse a 4 leaf wall(a separate wall built inside of the existing one with both sides of the inside wall closed off). 3 or 4 leaf walls have less low frequency isolation performance, albeit better mid-high TL specs. Leaf = this is ALL the layers of various wallboard (or other mass) ON THE SAME SIDE of a frame; if you put a layer of plywood, drywall, MDF, etc, one after the other, with NO AIR SPACE, on the same side of a frame, that is a LEAF.

A well built two leaf wall will outperform a 3 or 4 leaf wall on lower frequencies. Perhaps you mean that this seems to be contrary to your common sense rather than "basic physics".

Where02190, perhaps you can do a little research, try here. They have some easy to understand information available:

www.greengluecompany.com/understandingTripleLeaf.php

Or go look at SAE, Johnlsayers, ask Ethan or Rod Gervais(who has a cool studio construction book)

You obviously don't understand the concept of the floating room design at all, but you talk a good game.

More walls mean more dampening, which equates to less outside spl, period. Basic physics 101. A floating room deadens vibrations of lower frequencies, which helps both room acoustics and soundproofing. More basic physics.

Back to school for you spanky.

However none of this is either cheap or easy, and requires some serious preplanning and either a ton of research or some good knowledge of acoustical physics. Given the size of the room, the end result would be far too small to be really usable for much more than a vocal booth or iso tank for guitars.

I like it!

so what youre saying witesol is that you can never have enough bass traps?

ok so heres the plan for starters.

1. remove carpet.

2. put up about 4 2'x4' 703 sheets mounted to plywood alternating on the walls (2 on each)

3. put a bass trap in every corner.

is that good for starters???

ok so that leads me to another qustion. how do you fine tune a room. by applying little patches here and there? how do you hear the room and know what to do to fix it?

i guess ill get back to that after 1-3 is done.

It is possible to have too many bass traps, although in my opinion it seems like it would really take a lot of bass traps to do that. Ethan was saying earlier that my little tiny control room (approximately 9' x 12') could benefit from eight or more of his RealTraps bass traps (I have four right now, although even just putting up two of them really helped a lot; four obviously even better).

I would agree with Nick's assessment of what a floating room accomplishes. I only *wish* I had one of those!!!

that's a good start. But, Only 4 wall mounted reflection panels may not be enough. Thats 32 sq feet of panels and you have approx 160 sq feet on only one wall. As far as fine tuning the room, it's somewhat a matter of taste but small rooms tend to have mode and null issues that are somewhat closer together in frequency. In simple terms, Nulls are big dips in frequency response and modes are where frequencies build up. Your goal is to smooth out those as much as possible. That makes your mics "hear" a more balanced sound less colored by room issues. Your tracking room is very narrow so it might be better off deader than live sounding. Your control room is where most of your important decisions are made about your recordings. That's where there are some definite ways to proceed. Bass trapping there too. You might research RFZ or "reflection free zone" and get some ideas about how to proceed with your monitoring position in the CR.

In my own private studio I built 75% of the traps and wall units. I wanted them to look pro and built-in with matching grill cloths and mitre-cut painted frames. You don't have to go that far. I have lots of guests and clients over so I wanted a slicker look. I'm also designing and re-designing the Fender Studios Studio FM in Corona right now, a $75k bunch of upgrades. I doubt that I'll build any boxes or traps for that sized project. Probably Realtraps and possibly some of the Auralex ProPanels, which I like a lot.

keep your eye on ebay for realtraps, the better Auralex(or RPG) products, or rigid insulation..sometimes people have extra materials

take a look here: http://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.products&cat=9 ...these are like $250 for 3 units. Nice looking too.

best of luck to you, it's really fun stuff to build a nice studio for yourself.

Spanky

Oh yea, regarless if it's floated or not a leaf is a leaf. It does matter if the back of the inside floated wall is open studs with the proper air space, then the outside wall needs to be open studs to the same air space too. But, it matters little to this discussion for this poster. and, I talk a good game anyways. so, for the sake of ending that, I'll agree and say sure

Spanky

for the sake of this discussion that is true. More bass traps increase the bass response of the room. I imagine at some point you could physically run out of space and the sheer surface area of the traps might have a detrimental effect on the mids and highs. In a room where a playback system is, like a home theater, some amount of room support will be helpful in making things sound bigger. In a studio that's not what you want.

version 3.0, nice website. Now after you take some of the good advice in this thread and finish treating your room, I hope you address another area...Your Rates

Bear

ok so yeah. i was thinking of putting up 4 bass traps in each room. and i think we are going to buy all the materials and make it ourselves just because it would save money for buying more mics, etc.

so just to clarify. the bass traps and the panels are made out of the same fiberglass 703 material right? its just a different placement and the way they are built right?

yeah i looked back at it again and realized how small 2'x4' panels really meant. so how many would you recommend for that room?

so what would i use for fine tuning? .. foam? egg cartons? sections of carpet? and how would i know what to look for/know what to treat it with?

it would still be a good idea to use diffusers though right?

i dont know what youre talking about....i thought i pretty much covered the basics.

For a room 17.5' long 9' wide and 9' high I recommend at least eight 2x4 foot traps, and twice that would not be too many. I have 40 in my 25 by 16 foot living room.

See this:

www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Maybe, but that's not necessary. Unless cost is no object, you'll get much more value from bass traps and other absorption than from diffusion.

--Ethan

So you're basically saying you have 80% of the room covered in bass traps.

2x4x40=320sq ft.

25x16=400sq ft.

Room must have been pretty {censored}ty before the traps, huh?

Originally posted by where02190 So you're basically saying you have 80% of the room covered in bass traps. 2x4x40=320sq ft. 25x16=400sq ft. Room must have been pretty {censored}ty before the traps, huh?

400sq feet would be the square footage of the floor (or ceiling perhaps). That doesn't take into account wall space. Given an 8' ceiling height, and not including the ceiling as surface area, it's more like 656 sq feet of wall surface. Still, that is a lot of traps, maybe he gets some kind of deal or something. ..and who dusts all those?

Yes, correct, I gotta stop posting BC (before coffee), but still it seems like an excessive amount of traps.

hmm. im going to build everything. so should i just stay clear of diffusion...what ive read about it, it seemed pretty damn important for leveling the room out.