Members Majoria Posted January 30, 2009 Members Share Posted January 30, 2009 I posted this in the recording forum but not much feedback as of yet. I've been using Pro Tools LE 7.3 for a while now with a 003R interface and am mostly happy with what I can do with it. I also have the Music Production Toolkit. I upgraded the computer in early December from a Dell single core processor to a Mac Pro dual quad core running boot camp and transferred over my system to the Windows XP Pro section of the Mac. I was thinking of upgrading to PT8 when I got the Mac but then got to thinking about other DAW's. I record mainly my two bands and my personal projects which involve MIDI and various plug-ins, maybe a few synths on the personal stuff. I use all 8 channels on the 003R for drums and occasionally would like 1 or 2 more. I do a lot of songwriting and editing, one reason I like PT. What I'm after would be:*Something that would support plug-ins other than just RTAS.*Good MIDI abilities (I don't need highly advanced stuff, but I have to use Reason 3.0 to adjust the keyboard pedal since PT can't do that).*Something that can work with my 003R but also with other interfaces (something with better converter and preamps, such as the Duet).*Something easy to use (I find PT easy to use) I've looked at Cubase, Sonar, Logic, etc but aside from buying all of them and then deciding which one is best, I'm looking for used feedback. If I had to add another DAW based on what I know now, I'd go with Cubase. But since I don't know enough at this point, I'm looking for honest input (not sales pitches). So what are the pros and cons of the other DAW's? And which ones would work best with Pro Tools if I want to move files back and forth (record in one and edit or mix in another)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orbm1 Posted January 30, 2009 Members Share Posted January 30, 2009 I will suggest Ableton live I have not experimenting with PT, but I know that live has great rewiring capabilities..... great with midi and audio, easy to use, very user friendly.... I use it personally and I love it! don't forgett that you can download a demo on ableton's website hope this helps Omar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Pro Tools 8 and a copy of the FXPansion VST -> RTAS wrapper. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 30, 2009 Members Share Posted January 30, 2009 Pro Tools 8 and a copy of the FXPansion VST -> RTAS wrapper. Seriously. Yes. And another converter (with preamps if you wish) so you can bypass the Digi's converters. I have the FXPansion VST-RTAS wrapper, which I got upon several people's recommendation (including Phil's), and it works really really well. I don't have Pro Tools 8 but will get it probably later this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lawrence Farr Posted January 31, 2009 Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 Cubase (he says with obvious bias). It's fairly easy to use and/or plenty deep. The problem is that there is no demo for it so you'd want to find someone with it and use it for awhile to see if it fits. It may or may not but you won't know in a couple of hours. You'll need at least a week or so to start to really "get it". Not a "sales pitch" at all but I've not used anything as flexible overall. The UI is literally one of a kind (not speaking graphics, but "flexibility" once you understand it fully) and it can morph into almost anything you want from a very simple, clear and uncluttered PT style work surface to a very dense interface where most anything you need is right there within reach. Like all daws it's not perfect, but the workflow is a thing of beauty in my view... once you start using it regularly. Enough drinking the Steiny Kool-Aid... ... if you have specific questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I have PTLE and some others but I keep coming back to Cubase. The thing I always miss first in all other daws is the channel strip. It's very hard to let go of. P.S. Any of those daws you mentioned above will move files back and forth to PT with no problem... and there is really no such thing as a universal "best" daw, like there is no such thing as a universal best car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted January 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I'm still considering PT8 but it would be the LE version. One of my reasons for another DAW is the freedom of other hardware/interfaces. I've heard great things about the Duet but it doesn't appear to be compatible with the 003R. I'd love to just get a Rosetta 800 for a converter and then play around with various pres but I don't have the money for an 800. Also, there are a lot of plug-ins that folks have mentioned on these forums that aren't on Digi's list of compatible. Makes me wonder if they really aren't compatible or just not officially recognized (endorsed) as compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 You could always get a Rosetta 200... it could easily connect to your existing Digi 003R via S/PDIF. Or have a Black Lion mod done on your 003R - a lot of people seem to really like those. Personally, I thought the converters on the 003 were pretty good. I never felt they would prevent me from doing good work. YMMV. As far as plugins go, I think the most common / popular format is VST; nearly everyone supports that, although not always cross platform (Mac / PC). Pro Tools doesn't support that right out of the box, but the FXpansion wrapper does, and it works with the vast majority of VSTs and VST-Is. Pretty much everything I've ever tried, with very few exceptions. If I had to guess as to what the second most common plugin format is, I'd say it's probably RTAS and / or TDM, but that would just be a guess. But between those three formats, as long as it's available on a PC, chances are there's a version that is compatible with my system. Now as far as a second DAW is concerned, a Duet is only going to give you two channels of conversion, so you'd still likely need the 003R, or something similar, to do rhythm section tracking sessions. Even if you're just doing drums first, you're likely to want more than two I/O's... unless you plan on just using the Duet for overdubs... I just don't see the Duet as being a huge improvement over what you have now, at least if I'm understanding what you want to be able to do (record your bands) correctly. You say you find PT easy to use. You say you generally like the results you're getting. You want better MIDI, and better converters. PT 7.4 was a big step up from PT 7.3, and PT 8 is a whole 'nuther world in terms of the MIDI features. Chances are it will more than meet your needs. For converters, there's a ton of two channel AD/DAs available that are compatible with your 003R. If you want to see how the other half lives, then go buy a copy of Cubase. Or Sonar. Or Logic. They're all good programs too, and you can use your Digi 003R as a hardware I/O (via the ASIO drivers) for any of them. I'd recommend you try that first, and see how you feel about the software. If you dig it enough, then you can look into other interfaces, or in making additions to your 003R rig via external converters, word clocking, etc. I'd lean towards adding to the 003R as opposed to ditching it for something else. First, you lose money when you trade in on gear. Second, the 003R sounds pretty dang good. Third, you can easily add the other stuff to it, and then use that gear with any of the other major DAW programs as well as with Pro Tools. Craig Anderton is a big proponent of using different applications for what they do best, and there's a lot to be said for that approach too. For years, a lot of people sequenced on Logic and waxed audio in Pro Tools, using each program for what it did best at the time. But there's also a lot to be said for not messing with a good thing. Getting good on one program and being able to fly on it isn't without its' merits either, and learning a new program to the point of confidence / proficiency isn't a minor undertaking. I can certainly understand the desire to try, or even use different programs, and I think you sound like you're ready to give it a go... but if you like Pro Tools 7.3, you really owe it to yourself to give PT 8 a try too. I think you'd like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lawrence Farr Posted January 31, 2009 Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 I think Phil makes very good sense here. Upgrade to PT8 and if you still have the urge to cheat on her, try a less expensive version of one of the others to see how it fits. I think Cubase Essential 4 is about $150 these days. That would be a good place to start to get a feel for some of the basic interface. Or an entry level version of one of the other products. If you like the general interface you can upgrade later and have more things to explore. But I wouldn't pay full price for the top level version of an unfamiliar native daw that I wasn't sure I'd even like or use if I were you. That's a lot of money for a maybe. Here's a comparison chart of all 3 versions. Essential is missing lots of the bigger features but you can try out the interface and it won't cost you too much. http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/musicproduction/cubase4_product/cubase4_featuredetails.html Oh... ... don't forget about Reaper. Amazing program that won't cost you a dime to try. But if you know PT... and you like PT... you definitely should upgrade to 8. It's very nice. I use PTLE with an original MBox via S/PDIF out for mixing in that format. It works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 But I wouldn't pay full price for the top level version of an unfamiliar native daw that I wasn't sure I'd even like or use if I were you. Good point. In addition to Cubase, there are lite versions of Sonar and Logic too, and I believe all of them have upgrade paths to the "full" versions. And as you said, trying Reaper isn't going to cost anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted January 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks again. I have no intention of replacing the 003R since I'm keeping Pro Tools, I was just considering adding to it. What I liked about the Duet was the quality pres and converters for the price. I wouldn't use it as the only interface for drums (though I may stick it on the overheads) but was planning on using it for other things like vocals. The only 2 channel higher end converter/pre combo I've seen is the API A2D but it's nearly 4 times the cost. I'm not so thrilled with the Rosetta 200 since it's only 2 channels and I can have 8 channels on the 800 for not much more money. Converters are at the bottom of my priority list as of now, better monitors and better pres are much higher. Whatever I go with, I want to use it on Leopard. By no means have I ruled out PT8, it's still well in the consideration mix, I'm just looking at all the options since I'm in the position to do so. Can PT8 edit keyboard foot pedal timing, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lawrence Farr Posted January 31, 2009 Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 Can PT8 edit keyboard foot pedal timing, etc? I have no idea. I don't do any midi in PT, it wouldn't make much sense for me to do that having Cubase. Maybe someone else can chime in on that. With that said, PT8's midi has improved dramatically... but comparing it to Cubase or Logic is a really unfair comparison. For people who just play midi and do basic editing it's perfectly fine. I suspect that probably 50-75% of midi users with the smaller percentage doing more complex things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Can PT8 edit keyboard foot pedal timing, etc? Sure - but you could do that in PT 7. Instead of displaying MIDI notes, you need to display the controller you want to edit on the track's edit window display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Warhead Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 Consider an A/D converter with SPDIF output that also has a good clock output on board, and experiment with re-clocking your 003 also from the same box (or you could select the incoming SPDIF as the clock as well). You may be surprised at the difference re-clocking can make on some units, as Phil says "YMMV" though. I was VERY surprised at how much difference re-clocking a 002R was, never tried the 003R so cannot testify there. War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lucky #9 Posted February 4, 2009 Members Share Posted February 4, 2009 Many love Reaper; no cost download to try. Same with Cakewalk's Sonar; I think version 8 can be downloaded/used for 30 days free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members weeman Posted February 4, 2009 Members Share Posted February 4, 2009 I would purchase Cubase over logic and upgrade to ptools8. 8's much better for midi and the instruments are pretty good for generic stuff. Cubase has some great midi features and alot of users which is why i recommend it, its also easier to get instruments. I own logic8. protools8 and cubase SX3 and i dont like logic much its abit clumsy and made for children i find. also the other DAW's have better metering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Logic is "made for children"? This might get interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted February 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm a kid at heart, does that count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CME Posted February 4, 2009 Members Share Posted February 4, 2009 And IMO if you want to upgrade converters check out Black Lion Audio. They mod the 002/003 interfaces and the HD mod is worth every penny. And since you have the 003 with Word Clock it should be easier to set this up as a Master for outboard converters. But also to reiterate Phil give PT8 a try. It really has upped the ante for PTLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TBush Posted February 5, 2009 Members Share Posted February 5, 2009 logic much its abit clumsy and made for children i find. Bwa-haha! I want my binky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted February 5, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2009 Two problems with the Black Lion mod. One - I want to hear the difference first. Two - I don't want to go without my 003R for weeks. If I could just drive down to Mercenary and hear it and then have it done, that would be different. Is the mod just pres, converters, and clock? I say "just" as if those would have little effect..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members weeman Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Two problems with the Black Lion mod. One - I want to hear the difference first. Two - I don't want to go without my 003R for weeks. If I could just drive down to Mercenary and hear it and then have it done, that would be different. Is the mod just pres, converters, and clock? I say "just" as if those would have little effect..... From what your saying you wouldnt hear it anyway as you probably wont have A) a good enough set of speakers and B) and sonically good mix enviroment. I know someone whos had his 002r moded and he says it made a hell of a different but tbh with the monitors hes using im kinda shocked he can hear anything at all. Anyway Soundonsound said the 003R's pre's are as good as the focusrite octopre's pre-amp quality and i own both and the octopre really made a sonic difference for me. Personally if SOS say its that good on the 003R i wouldnt change something that certainly works. Ive never A/B'ed them but il asumme their right. Another argument is if you get the converters upgrade what would be the point in A) Le is restricted to 96khz? and B) youl probably not hear it unless ur running PT HD sample rates. It sounds like alot of money to ware a Tag like MAC's and tbh its not what you've got its what you can do..... piece no dis-respect to peeps with black mods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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