Is there any point in compressing sampled drums?

Apart from maybe applying compression/limiting on the stereo drum buss?

It seems to me that with well recorded samples (i.e. not brickwall limited for a start) there is no need to use a compressor like you would with a live drummer, for getting the hits coming up to the same level for a start - sampled hits are already all at the same level.

I guess if you were tracking a live drummer using e-drums, you might still want to use compression to bring up beats that have lower velocities, whether those were intended by the drummer or not. But if it was just sloppy drumming, couldn't you apply velocity changes to the dud hits anyway?

And, maybe there is scope for shaping the attack of samples with a compressor.

But, otherwise why would you bother compressing drum samples in a project? Good samples hardly need it, do they?

What are your thoughts?

You can change the sound of the sample by changing the attack time. Get the transient to pop out. Listen to any modern rock/pop stuff like Paramore or the Avril's and Clarson's et al. They layer sample over live drums. And those samples are squished for effect. For the sound. It sounds exciting and loud.

For midi drums, I like to program in some off kilter dynamic in the snare then hit hard with a compressor. The tone changes more for each hit even though the level stays the same from the compressor. It sounds more... real.

That's interesting Lee. I've only ever applied compression as a kind of levelling tool on drums, to get the hits more consistent.

When you say that you can get the transient to 'pop' out, do you mean that you run an attack time that's as long, or longer, than the transient. Or, do you mean that you run an attack time that's quite short?

It seems that it should be the former but I'm wondering what the technique is?

The former. A long attack time. I picture a window and the attack time is the size of that window. If I open it up (longer) it allows the transient to pass. Like actually opening a window and letting flying leaves come in. More or less? Shorten it and it get a hole different vibe where the transient gets squashed. Equally cool.

Then play with the release. Do you want to snares buzzing for a while? That can be cool. Lot's a trash or liveness. Ring. Or do you want if poppy and short. So you shorten the release time.

No need to leave you sample alone. Mess them up.

A compressor is not just for squishing. It's for changing the sound's shape.

If the samples are long (toms and snare primarily, but perhaps others as well), you can also change the "placement" and make it sound larger by bringing up the sustain and the sound of the room. And then, of course, what Lee said above applies to compressing samples.

Thanks guys, I've had great success in applying 'creative' compression to get DI'd electric guitars to sound more natural (attenuate the transients and add sustain, basically) but I've never really used them to shape the sound of drum hits before, beyond evening out the hits for a sloppy drummer.

I have some questions on how the VCA's actually operate in a compressor but need to formulate them properly!

I'll be back

Ok, it's impossible to frame any of my questions without spending some time doing a good bit of further reading, and even more time playing with various compressor plugins, so I'm going to leave it for now

Maybe I'm overcomplicating things but it does seem to me that the response of a compressor and the relationships between the different parameters and the source audio is not just as simple as drawing an envelope diagram

We'll do our best to try to decipher them if you do your best to try to explain your questions. Remember - compression parameters also depend on the level of the track. Setting a threshold at -6dBFS doesn't do much of anything if the RMS (average) levels are hovering at -18dBFS and the peaks never exceed -12dBFS... if the source sound is hotter, those same settings will result in more audible compression, etc.

Ya, I can't even decipher what it is I'm trying to ask

It's to do with what happens between the attack and release, particularly on sources like drums, that have really short transients. Lee says above that you should get more snare buzz, ringing, resonance etc. with a longer release time.

But, if the VCA has applied, say, 6dB of compression at the peak of the transient, wouldn't this mean that the very decay and sustain you're looking for would also be attenuated with a longer release time? As the compressor takes longer to turn the output up after the transient?

Or does that even make sense as a question?

In Sonar they have a percussion strip that will allow you to shape the transient ramps you can change the attack ramp up to p[eak and make it quick or sharp,

and then you can adjust the fade out ramp. Not something I use allot but pretty cool none the less. In general I dont use anything on samples or

recordingd from a drum machine. They pretty much Got it right when those were made. Sometimes I like a beat but it may lack kick or be too

harsh. Then I may use one of a number of comps or limiters.

I also like using a lexicon reverb plugin with a very mild plate reverb with a bright resonance. This gives the drums some nice sparkle and pushes them

into the background a bit. Some samples are just too in your face. Some songs require the drums to be pushed back into the soundscape backing the

material instead of being the center of focus. Reverb and or compression can help there. You can use real reverb too. Play back a monitor in a really

reflective room and mic it up and track it to another channel then blend it in with the dry stuff.

Reamping is another option. Many sample real drums to make them sound more canned. You can do the opposite too, make a canned drum sound like a live drum.

It works best for a snare but you can place a snare over a speaker, play the sample back through it then mics and record the snare to another track.

The speaker acts like a drum stick. Ive only used it a few times reamping an actual snare track. The original track had a nasty ring EQing couldnt hide.

I set the track up with with a sharp attack with some extra upper bass and then just adjusted the gain and EQ of the amp till I got something good

recording the bottom of the snare. You want the snare head to cover the speaker too so theres no bleedover of an open speaker.

Many virtual instruments give you access to controls that are very much like the ADSR envelope on a synthesizer. Even if they're sampler based, and not snthesizers. At the very least, you almost always have some kind of release control.

That's a powerful way to apply envelope shaping characteristics you would get from a good compressor, but you can do it right on the instrument itself. Then you can apply further processing at mix time if necessary.

Thanks WRKGMC. I've been thinking about getting a real room sound on the drums in my current project by burning the dry drums to CD, with a click at the beginning so I can line it up on my DAW later, and recording in stereo from a reasonably good HiFi in my kitchen. My kitchen sounds really great when I sing and play guitar there so it's worth a try, to see if I can get a better room sound up than this:-

*listen*

I put a Massey L2007 on the little ghost roll sample to bring it up to level the rest of the drums. There is also a Massey Tapehead on the stereo drum buss and a reverb send to a plate algorithm.

Apologies for the sloppy guitar!

Now that I'm learning a bit about creative envelope shaping, I might have a go at getting the snare more resonant.

Thanks for all your replies so far!

I'm running PTLE7.4 on a 10 year old eMac, so virtual instruments are non-runners for me. It's all dragging samples onto a grid, I'm afraid

Did you keep the "Ignition Pack" disks that came with PTLE 7.4? Ableton Live Lite (which includes the excellent Impulse instrument) and BFD Free should both be qualified to run on your eMac. I used to run those instruments on a 1 ghz single processor G4.

Try this. Download the free trail of the fantastic CT4 compressor plugin from Massey. The reason the Massey? It's dead simple and dead awesome.

http://www.masseyplugins.com/try

Place a snare sample at 2 and 4 and loop playback. Put the CT4 in line. Now crank the compression. Now flip the simple attack switch from slow to fast. Crank more compression and repeat. Note how the drum actually gets quieter with a fast attack. It's grabbing the compressor more. Make up that gain with the simple output knob. Note how the sound varies going from the fast setting where the drum just gets swoooped down right away to when you use the slow setting and the pop jumps through even more. Cause you're not grabbing the drum with the compressor until the body of the sound. So that pop jumps out more.

Keep bypassing then re-engaging and playing with the output knob to make sure the compressed version and the bypassed version are the same volume.

now play with the simple release settings. See how using the long release elongates the snare rattle and the shell ping. Among other things. It's a cool sound. But not the only cool sound. Try the short release. KANGung. It shuts down quicker.

The Massey is a great way to easily learn how to use a compressor. IF you find yourself really needing more precise control, use something else. But the Massey sounds way good.

BFD Free crashes my Mac (the beachball of death!) and I never took to Ableton software for some reason but will have to load it up soon to check out that Impulse instrument..

See post #13. I have the Massey suite, including the CT4.

I've gotten great results from the CT4 on vocals, bass and guitar and will definitely try your suggestions on drum hits