I Spout Heresy...I should be Burned in Oil

Today ladies and gentlemen, I am the heretic...and I say to you in a most mournful and solemn voice...If it wasn't for Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones, Led Zeppelin would never have made it in today's world.

"(Seize him...don't let him get away!!!!)":evil:

Let me explain, PLEASE! I beg you... I spent over 2 and a half hours in a traffic jam today coming from work. And during that time, I had Zeppelin roaring the entire time. I have been a BIG BIG Zeppelin fan from the beginning as many of you well know, and I'm a huge Bonham advocate...but I took off the rose colored earphones today and really listened...HARD!!! And I have to reiterate my statement.

Page and JPJ are monsters...playing masters if you will. But for the life of me, a bunch of their tunes sound like nothing but 1 and 2 bar rythmic hooks that they tried to make into a song...and at that...many of them sound the same! "(he's dillusional...somebody stop him before he hurts himself!!!!)" And it started driving me crazy!

And as far as Bonham goes (keel haul him!!! NOW!!!) His playing is very very good and masterful, but on many of the tunes, his kit sounds like CRAP!! (lookout...someone fainted in the back:rolleyes:) If he was going for the card board box sound of the 50's, he succeeded!! It's aweful...what have I been thinking all these years! But what I can't figure is how sometimes his drums sound so good on one tune, and so terrible on another. His snare always pops, but his kick at times is flappy (no matter how hard he hit it...it's yucky) and his toms are all over the place! (and I am not on any medication...thank you) I am so perplexed and dissapointed! I read the article in Traps again and have come to realize that each tune was sometimes recorded at differnt times and different locations, but man...how could you think some of that sound is acceptable!

And Plant...all I can say is that he is hit or miss! It sounds like he started to get full of himself after Stairway and it shows in his vocal acrobatics. The "Traps" artcile calls it howling, and I'm afraid I have to concur!

So I sit here writing this saga, alone in my basement...wondering the meaning of it all! I feel I have burst my own bubble so to speak and come to the harsh realization. Either I've grown up to face a cruel reality, or truly I am in the twilight zone.

I still love the band...and they will always have an honored place in my heart and soul, but I've pulled the curtain away from the wizard...and have come to recognize that OZ isn't as all powerful as it once appeared to be! I must admit, I am pensive in posting this thread, but I wondered if any of you have come to this conclusion as well...let the pie throwing begin!!!

Heretic

Blasphemy.

Wheres the rack?

I'm a lover of the band and all the members myself, but I've always thought there was a significant amount of slop in their catalog, on all fronts, including playing/singing, writing, and production...with the notable exception of JPJ...can't find much fault with his performance in any regard. The thing is...like so few...they did a lot of things no one had ever done before. Their unique brand of riff/groove syncopation, combined with the loose, off-the-cuff style of execution they exhibited even in the studio made for an end-product that was appealing even amid/despite the apparent lack of perfection.

I dont think theres a single studio cut I would prefer over any of the live cuts available of the same song.

You ar so right! Live...they were earth shattering, but somehow, in the studio...I just didn't get it. I went through so many tracks that I hadn't listened to in years and I kept saying to myself...Man that sucks! What were they thinking. I imagine though Rum you're probably right. No one had ever done this stuff before so it really was ground breaking. But we as a society must have been ripe for this drastic change because some of it was hard to listen to. But as strange as some sounded...other tunes sounded so fantastic. I begin to wonder whether they just needed album filler at times...

You know John was a tremendous force and a real innovator, but if he played a kit that sounded that way today, I doubt if he would have been noticed as much as say a Peart or Portnoy. Hell even Mitch Mitchell or Ginger Baker had an open throaty sound, but at least it was consistant...

OT...Rum...what's with the new avatar? Interesting...

Plant, Page, Bonham, Jones in that order, made the thing work.

Plant, miracle voice, can't gush enough on the impact he (he?) had - when he could still sing.

Page, competent studio guy mostly copped all the blues guys around him. No Page, no tunes. Dabbled some they say. Hurt his hands permanently...

Bonham - whatever already...

Jones. I'm almost tempted to say it coulda been any of a dozen other bassists there; have no other preference though...

The trick to Zeppelin is weed. Ever since I gave that up, they suck.

Yeah, I can see favoring their live product...but...

The problem I always had with them live was page's guitar sound. For everything he did so well, Jimmy was simply no paragon of technological prowess. A good tuner and some decent signal processing would have gone a long way toward installing some additional balls in their live sound. I just always got the impression that it wasn't about that for him...ya know...fiddling with stuff...seemed to be more about living in a given moment...

Don't get me wrong...that approach produced some one-of-a-kind moments!

Is my kit Carmine.....

It was just time for a change...that other one was making my teeth hurt!

The trick to Zeppelin is weed. Ever since I gave that up, they suck.

Well that explains why I still like 'em!

+3 Rumstik, quality posts.

Carmine, I know how you feel about Zeppelin...I have those same moments with bands that I hold in high regard and then suddenly get this other point of view where I see all these flaws that weren't there before...I still hold on to the good material though.

First of all, I've gotta agree that John Paul Jones is a very underrated bass player. He's not too shabby on keys either. The Led Zeppelin sound is the the result of the synergism of the four individuals.

As far as John Bonham's drum sound, I find that the more I like the song, the more I like the drum sound. For instance, "Good Times, Bad Times", "In My Time Of Dying", "The Rain Song", and "Ten Years Gone" are a few of my favorite songs. It's no coincidence that I think that the drums sound awesome on those songs.

As has been previously mentioned, Jimmy Page was going into uncharted territory. To my knowledge, the drums had never been that out in front in a mix before. They also experimented with different drum sounds. Most of the time it worked, sometimes it didn't. If the drums didn't sound perfect for every song, so what? What could be more boring than the perfect drum sound on every song?

70s were great(though I was pretty young), 80s were great, 90s were also great. Every decade has its own strenghts and weakness. But things need to change to stay interesting. Even the greatest songs will get old after you hear it enough times. It's been a few years back now; but someone broke into my car and I lost my entire music collection. It seemed terrible at the time but maby it wasn't really all that bad looking back. I didn't buy any of the same music I had. I didn't even want to. I had already heard all of those songs 10,000+ times. I was ready for more variety(I just didn't know it). It doesn't mean that those songs were not great; just that I was ready for something new.

This is why you should never whorship anyone. Sooner or later you'll find out that they weren't as perfect as you thought.

I went through my Zeplin "phase" as a kid (in the 80's) And fell in love with their stuff and still love it; but I think I look at it more realistically now. I think it all changed when I started taking drum lessons and I asked my teacher (a jazz drummer; who loved rock as well;just so you don't think he's some type of jazz snob.) what he though of Bonham and he said yeah he's pretty good. HUH? I thought? Pretty good? that's it? Then he proceded to explain to me some of Bonhams technique and how Elvin was doing it more complicated, cleaner and faster 10 years earlier. Well I had to hear this to believe so......I did........and it was. But that doesn't mean I don't think he's a friggin amazing drummer! I just realized maybe he wasn't the "BEST EVER" as much as Dave Grohl would like you to believe.

Page (to me anyway) always had a knack for ruining a super cool riff by playing it for bloody 7 minutes. But damn they were some of the best riffs ever.

I actually think plant is the weakest link in the whole damn band. I think he had great charisma but a bruttal voice. To whiney and girly (in a bad way) for my tastes.

Don't worry Carmine they would have been huge today as well. The songs (for the most part;they did have some brutal filler) were increadible for any era. I think its just important to remember they were a really great rock band. nothing more nothing less. (well perhaps a little on the "more" side) Just like the beatles, stones, who etc.

OT-Rumstik...your kit is VERY cool looking...this picture is very artistic. Very nice, very nice! It's so balanced and serene. Good color photo! And the darkened avatar really gives it that moody club effect...like the old club scene.

JPJ was SO much more than a bassist, though. He was the real genius behind LZ, and continues to be a vital musical voice today.

Sounds like you have almost listened to them too much. Almost to the point of over analyzing them. Do you still like the music? Then stop analyzing it and just listen to it and if you like what you hear, enjoy it. I guess I just don't do that too much even though I have been playing music since I was a kid. I just sit back and enjoy the music. I may enjoy it for different reasons but if I like it, I like it.

Now, with Zep, I have always thought of them as 4 equals. Take any one of them out and its most definitely not the same. They also all have their flaws as would anyone especially from a rock band in the 70's. I do find it hard to believe anyone could say JPJ could be replaced by anyone.

Carmine, you BLASPHEMER!

Here's my take. Watch and listen to the two DVD set and you'll become inspired again. In my opinion, Bonham is the band. What he played and when he played it made those tunes dance.

You have to appreciate also that Zeppelin was a three piece band. Have you ever played in a three piece band? There is a lot of space to fill up and not a whole lot of room to hide when mistakes are made.

Regarding the sloppyness. Let's not forget the drugs and alcohol. Jimmy Page is sweating his balls off in a lot of the DVD footage and I don't think it's just because of the lights!

I think the guitar work sounded better in the studio because Page and John Paul Jones were studio musicians, they could manipulate the sound. If you listen to "The Song Remains the Same", you can hear they had difficulty pulling a lot of those tunes off live. I found that true also when I saw them in '77.

Finally, after reading the "Traps" article and watching the two set DVD, I've come to a new appreciation for Bonham's playing and style. Everyone always talked about his bass drum foot(one of the best in the business), but he had a great left hand also. He could play those tasty little figures(ghost notes) that really makes the groove, groove. Also, I think something that really helped him become the drummer that he was, was the fact he was a bricklayer. Talk about strengthening your hands and wrists, holy {censored}! You

ever shake hands with a bricklayer or construction worker? Their hands are like iron, they can bring you to your knees. Maybe that's what we should all do to improve our playing abilities, spend a summer laying bricks. How about another great bricklayer. Jerry Rice. He could catch the ball, huh? Sorry.

Judas Priest > Led Zeppelin

Carmine, you BLASPHEMER! Here's my take. Watch and listen to the two DVD set and you'll become inspired again. In my opinion, Bonham is the band. What he played and when he played it made those tunes dance. You have to appreciate also that Zeppelin was a three piece band. Have you ever played in a three piece band? There is a lot of space to fill up and not a whole lot of room to hide when mistakes are made. Regarding the sloppyness. Let's not forget the drugs and alcohol. Jimmy Page is sweating his balls off in a lot of the DVD footage and I don't think it's just because of the lights! I think the guitar work sounded better in the studio because Page and John Paul Jones were studio musicians, they could manipulate the sound. If you listen to "The Song Remains the Same", you can hear they had difficulty pulling a lot of those tunes off live. I found that true also when I saw them in '77. Finally, after reading the "Traps" article and watching the two set DVD, I've come to a new appreciation for Bonham's playing and style. Everyone always talked about his bass drum foot(one of the best in the business), but he had a great left hand also. He could play those tasty little figures(ghost notes) that really makes the groove, groove. Also, I think something that really helped him become the drummer that he was, was the fact he was a bricklayer. Talk about strengthening your hands and wrists, holy {censored}! You ever shake hands with a bricklayer or construction worker? Their hands are like iron, they can bring you to your knees. Maybe that's what we should all do to improve our playing abilities, spend a summer laying bricks. How about another great bricklayer. Jerry Rice. He could catch the ball, huh? Sorry.

You've got me wrong Hungarian...I still love his playing. I just think Bonhams kit on alot of the later stuff sounded like crap. It's not what he's playing...it's what he's playin on!. And by the way, I've never heard a 3 piece band ever sound that big. But that brings me back to my point...If Bonham's drums are week "IN SOUND" what's making it sound so full...Page and JPJ! They both are really rounding out the sound so much that nothing else is needed. And Plant to me...ya just never knew which Plant would be coming to the table. If it was the rockin screamin Plant from I and II...it really cooked. Anything else and I think he just let the band down...

nobody's perfect, Carm.

legends usually pale compared to their hype upon close scrutiny.

If it wasn't for some of their less-then-stellar songs and discs, their great songs and discs wouldn't have been so great. Everything plays into how great they were. you gotta have a little {censored} to make the good stuff that much better.

OT-Rumstik...your kit is VERY cool looking...this picture is very artistic. Very nice, very nice! It's so balanced and serene. Good color photo! And the darkened avatar really gives it that moody club effect...like the old club scene.

Gee, thanks Carmine. I've seen evidence that you have a good eye, so it's a meaningful compliment that I'm happy to accept.

Gee, thanks Carmine. I've seen evidence that you have a good eye, so it's a meaningful compliment that I'm happy to accept.

Hey Rum...have you seen these drums called Le Sopranos from Italy? If you wanna see something really completely different, check these guys out. I saw them in one of the posts by accident. Talk about old world style!

http://www.lesoprano.it/drumset/nvintage_en.html

Check out all the brass, hoops lugs and casings...

Sorry I hijacked this thread...wait a minute...it's my thread...oh well, I'll chastise my self later...

Carmine, I've got a # for an exorcist from over your way- PM me and I'll give it to ya.

No seriously, there have been a lot of great takes on this post. We all will probably have very strong opinions on this issue, as you well know. As I see it, Led Zeppelin was a Blues influenced Rock and Roll band, and a damn good one as bands go, even for today. As we all know, sometimes things we do are phenomenal and sometimes not so much. If it wasn't for L.Z. a lot of musicians wouldn't even be here today - bottom line. Yes , I agree that there are tracks on different albums/CD's that the recording sucked, drums sounded like {censored}, Plant's vocals were too over the top, or the base line was mediocre at best. Ah, but there's other's where it was magic- period.

That band was a ground breaking band in so many area's that they were ahead of their time in many respects. Technology today can and does make average musicians seem like they're masters and we all know it.

When Bonham's kick sounded like cardboard at the time they may have thought it sounded great. We are spoiled when it comes to the tools we have to work with today and with what we have heard since a lot of those recordings were made. I'm not gonna get into the drugs and booze- we all know the effects of that, especially when our egos may be inflated. I guess what I'm saying, and not very articulately, 2 1/2 hours in a traffic jam can ruin anyones perspective. Like someone said- you have always loved Led Zeppelin, get your head back there and continue. What if the same group of guy's started out today w/ the same talent and experience and have all of the technology and up graded equipment options we have now. Probably smoke the music business. Once in a great while the Rock and Roll Gods smile down on a choice group of players and say "let there be rock" and theres rock. We should count or blessings, not criticize or find fault with them and become in-grates. O.K., the oil's at 260 degrees, if you'll just step out onto the platform and put this blindfold on we can begin the purification.

I second that. Led Zeppelin live has so much more power, no, intensity, emotion and feel. That's one of the reasons I like How The West Was Won much more than Led Zeppelin I, II, III or IV. But that's not to say that they suck in the studio. You can tell that they're all playing their heart's out in the studio.

As for Bonham's drums, I think they sound very good. Very wide open and powerful.

I still love the band...and they will always have an honored place in my heart and soul, but I've pulled the curtain away from the wizard...and have come to recognize that OZ isn't as all powerful as it once appeared to be! I must admit, I am pensive in posting this thread, but I wondered if any of you have come to this conclusion as well...let the pie throwing begin!!!

No pies coming from me that's for sure...I've always said that someone is a true fan of any band when they can honestly and openly critique their heroes...Most people simply go about praising the bands they love...A real fan knows there's always that one horrid experimental album, and plenty of bad songs that happened along the way