keeping time- metronome vs. actual song

so i know i should start working more on keeping time, but i was thinking, im not very good at playing along with a metronome, but im good at keeping up with songs when i play to my ipod. what do you guys think, can playing to a song be as effective as playing to a click, or is either way better?

Depends on your goals. Playing to recorded tracks can have a remedial effect on your playing. All the connectivity is built in, you know what's coming and most would would develop a dependence on that relationship.

This may show no negative effects with your band - every one interacts in real time. In pro/studio terms though, time gets counted in milliseconds. This means all the latency you develop leaning on your IPod will show as erratic grooving and other slop.

So what to do? Well good time is no miracle. I think most musicians have a sense of the desired precision.

The problems therefore are physical - a matter of erratic technique. That's why the metronome. Unlike the recorded tracks, all it does is supply one unerring reference. It becomes the responsibility of the player to develop the physical steadiness to generate good time.

Definitely practice with a metronome. It's hard but you won't record to guitar tracks.

If you can't play with a metronome, it is quite possible that the other things in a song (like all them pretty notes) are obscuring your ability to listen to what you are playing.

But I don't know why you are finding it easier to play with prerecorded music instead of a click, so I couldn't say if one is better than anohter.

I can say that I have recorded a lot of music, both to clicks and more or less full arrangements, and I don't see the difference, except that a fuller arrangement is more forgiving in ways that I'd want to avoid if I were trying to get better at keeping time.

no offense, but if your having trouble playing to a click then your time is probably not that good. It's a lot of work and can be very frustrating. I find sometimes when things aren't "clicking" (no pun intended) with the metronome I wanna toss it aside and just jam.....Those are the times when I really force my self to stick with it. But sooner or later you have to internalize time and not be a slave to a metronome.

In my opinion the greatest drummers in history are the ones who have completely dominated time keeping. See Tony Williams.

i've always found it helpful to play to real music for getting time changes down or working on certain parts and pieces. as far as time i've never had an issue, and its extended into my guitar playing where i tend to keep time when others get 'lost' or have trouble staying spot on.

When in doubt do both , matched or traditional , crossed or open , metro or cd/ipod/8track When both sides are so clearly in possession of good concepts and uses why worry about what side of the bread to butter on and butter them both.

"Drumming is riding the bike Dr. Seuss built" -J Fishman

the bikes got allot of pedals , and they all do something.

Very true. If I understand this correctly, (with all due respect) Scare is saying you think you're playing in time with your iPod. A metronome, unlike an mp3 player, is unforgiving. All you hear is the click and therefore know quickly when one's time is off.

My first 2 years on the set I had plenty of work to do regarding timekeeping. After practicing long and hard (gotta find a better way to say that) with a metronome I noticed vast improvements (as did my bandmates). The result that makes me the happiest is not rushing fills anymore! Remember, if it's easy and you're not making mistakes, you're probably not practicing efficiently. [/:blah:]

Music is like a river flowing. It has natural speed ups and slow downs, with lots of little eddys flowing in many directions. It's expressiveness. But it also has to have some control to it, and that control must never be relinquished. Imaginge going down a rapid out of control without oars. Sure you're riding the water, but it's mayhem most of the way. You have to remember, you're the one driving the bus so to speak, so you as a drummer HAVE to have impecable time. And that timing is crucial for all the others to follow.

Years ago, the tunes didn't have a click track. Go listen to some of the old souls tunes and you'll wonder how everyone made it to the end together, much less made a complete song. Then the movie industry started needing some direction. There had to be a way to sync up musical scores and backgrounds with the time keys that were happening in the film...visual and audio linkage. After seeing how helpful click tracks organized the music, it became a staple.

In today's world, click tracks are essential. But ya wanna know a secret. Experienced drummers know how to bend and shape their music and make it feel good, even with a click banging in their ear. The last 6 years of my playing on stage live utlizied a click track. We sequenced many bass and extra percussion parts overtop the band playing live. Without it, we'd be going down those rapids out of control every night.

Work with a click, learn your craft, and experience the benefits of truly good time. Learn to play "inside" time before you learn to play "outside"

This was an early issue with my drumming, as well. I found that playing along to CDs and the radio made me better with time keeping, and it was a much more fun way of moving into working on timekeeping than playing to an annoying click.

My two cents: go back and forth. Play along to a track (say a rock tune at 105 bpm), and then set your click at about 75% of that tempo and play for 3-5 minutes. Then play along to another track. This will not only keep you from getting bored, but by modifying the tempo in slower/faster increments, you'll get used to song tempo fluctuation, as (hopefully) bands you play in won't have each song at the same tempo.

That is, of course, unless you play in a modern rock band.

Yep - doing both is a great thing.

But IF it's a choice of one or the other, go with the metronome. Every piano student, every violin student, every bassoon student uses one - the person considered most responsible for time in ensemble playing really ought use one too.

Hey there, I'm in agreement with Carmine, in that playing to a click is essential to have in your 'drummer's toolkit', so to speak. the problem with playing with prerecorded songs, especially if its older than say, 1980, is that back then clicks were rarely used. Ian Paice, one of the best drummers on the planet , has never used one, and never will, its all about 'feel ' with him, besides, his meter is great anyway. I've been involved in some minor league recording situations where I've had to play with a click, so I know how hard that is to do. with cans on, no problem, but to try and do it live, with a band, without phones....hmmm...

Anyway, my solution to help with your timing? LEVEL 42. the band. In all my years of playing, that group has the greatest sense of meter and time I've ever heard, thanks to the fact that they have an all world rhythm section of Mark King and Gary Husband. Practice not only beats to their material, but also rudiments. singles, doubles, paradiddles, in 1/4, 1/8, 16ths, 32nds, 64ths tempoi against the tempo of the song...I'll never be a Rudiment King, but time and again I get told my Meter is rock solid, and I owe that to the aforementioned group. These 3 discs in particular....' World Machine'', ' Running In The Family', and Guarenteed'. Hope this helps:D:idea:

PEACE.

Unless you want to make a living playing in a studio group, I'd say it's far more important to be able to play with a band, and cope with the occasional "dynamic tempos" that come along with that experience. Metronomes are great tools for practice, esp. fundamentals, but learning to play with a bass player is more important than playing with a little clicking noise.

Besides, if your band is any good, you won't need a click in the studio; you can all play together at once, you know, like a band.

What hapens if YOUR time is not rock-solid - nor is your bassist's time solid???

Playing with a band is all about time. If you cannot play time, good players will notice - and you won't last long in their bands.

I've been doing this for 30+ years. Trust me on this: Metronome practice is crucial to becoming a good musician. Especially early on.... far more valuable to playing along with recordings.

My problem is that I can't hear a metronome when I play, but using the same setup, I can hear music with minimal trouble.

I've recorded quite a few guitar tracks to a metronome, then played off it with drums - and that works quite well.

I've also done the opposite, played drums (no metronome) and then recorded guitar to it.

I'm accurate enough to where it wasn't a problem to switch instruments and play right along to it.

Playing along withe iPod is fun. But I don't think it helps that much for developing good time. I grew up playing along to recordings of Edgar Winter, Chicago, ZZ Top etc. I thought I was locked in. But, really my time sucked. I was told this often. Later I started working with a metronome some and it has gotten a lot better.

I think this is becuase if you're playing along with the iPod, you can muddle through things and be close so you think you're there. If you rush a fill a little, you can adjust back in quickly. Plus, you're playing along with music that is in good time. When you play in a band that may not be the case. If/when other members speed up slow down etc., you'll just follow along with them because that's how you practice.

When practicing with metronome though, if you speed up a little or rush/drag a fill you know it. It's hard, but it's good.

Play with the iPod for fun. Play with the metronome to improve your time.

The objective of practicing to a metronome is to NOT hear it!

If you're practicing correctly, your stroke will fall on the pad at exactly the same moment as the click; you will hear the two sounds as one and therefore "not hear the click".

The ultimate aim is to have the time SO ingrained into your being that you don't need a click to keep good time. This maddens the inexperienced, who think they need to hear the click. Not hearing it as it's occurring at first feels like walking a tightrope... until you GET IT.

I can play a drum beat all day and have perfect timing, but if there's no changes, no music to inspire those changes, then I'm no better than the metronome, which is nothing but a machine, where I am a musician and artist.

Seriously though, inexperienced players get the same thing playing to CD's - then you figure it out that when you don't hear the drums you're right on the money.

My problem isn't so much that it's being lost in the mix, it's that I can't hear it enough - not loud enough. Music has other frequencies I can hear better to give me more of a point of reference...

I know part of it is that I can't hear it because I'm on top of it, but I also can't hear it over the sound leaking through my headphones. Playing to a metro isn't all that fun anyway, at least playing to audio has something to keep you going.

I must be missing the big picture I guess. I too enjoy using an ipod to play with. It has it's place. But ladies and gentlemen. for all intents and purposes, we are and will be the metronome for ANY band. We are time keeps AND musicians. In the classical reference, we are the "conductors". We set the pace, we help control the feel, and in that old age...a house must have a solid foundation or it will crumble. All these things we've been mentioning are tools...but that's the nature of the best. Nobody has ever said that if you play with a metronome, you have to play "metronome-LIKE". It's there for pulse, and eveness. It's a foundation that you can have your whole musicality based upon.

I grew up playing to records. It's great fun! Hell I thought I was part of Paul Revere and the Raiders once in my make believe band. (oh god...here he goes again) But think of click tracks and metronomes as "fine tuning" the engine. Even the best race car drivers still fine tune their machine before they perform. If you really want to scare yourself sometime, go ahead and play with your ipod, close your eyes and have somebody else turn the sound down while you're playing. You may think you're playing like John Bonham, but it sure sounds more like John Boneham, if you get my drift.

No one's saying do one or the other...balance weedhopper...balance! Use both techniques for what they're meant to be!

To me, this argument is somewhat analogous to the fretted folk who eschew staff notation for tablature. One's a fundamental of professional music, the other's a fun shortcut that, if you rely on it exclusively, WILL stunt your growth.

No one's saying do one or the other...balance weedhopper...balance! Use both techniques for what they're meant to be!

When I was a drum teacher two decades ago I always told students to play along to records for fun and learning! But I always made sure they practiced written drum music, on a pad, to a metronome. Because that's how you build professional musicians.

woah thats a lot of replies. y'all make some realy good points. some of your posts, carmines in particular remind me of a segment on the Dimevision dvd, where the late great Dimebag Darell explains his thoughts on editing music with pro tools. how if you listen to older music (using black sabbath as a reference) there wasnt as much editing so the music sounds more.. authentic i guess.. more pure, you can feel it. he then says something along the lines of "and if the drummer speeds up, its like a race car driver hittin the gas, now whats wrong with that?"

anyway, hah. im gonna start finding soem interesting ways to use my metronome more when i practice, so thanks for all your suggestions and comments.

also,

cause that would be gross:)

In a lot of the originals that I've been involved on the creative process on, tempo changes and timing changes/feels were part of it.

Makes it impossible to try and do to a metronome.

You know, I read and hear these kind of comments from pros quite often. But if anyone I ever or have ever played with thinks I'm speeding up or slowing down, I get crucified, and then fired. go figure.

I think if you are new to drumming especially you need some metronome time. I (as a bass player) have played with some young drummers who think they have great timeing with a cd or ipod but when the time comes to play live you find out quickly that they were not keeping time they were following time. When the drummer is following the bands time a small bobble from a bass player (some experience here)can pretty much end the song with an inexperienced group. Anyone can tap their foot to the music. You don't even need to count to do that. But you do yourself an injustice of your practice time if you dont use a metronome to develop your internal timing. After practice is over then play with your ipod untill your batteries are dead. It's less fun now; but you don't want to sacrifice tomorrow for today.