Bosphorus lets me down

I'm a Bosphorus cymbal fan -- I've played many of them that I like a lot! My two main rides and my main set of hats are all Bosphorus. You may remember a number of months ago I posted that I was going to do a custom order with them for a set of New Orleans hats in a heavier than normal weight. I had seen a set like this in an online demo video and was very impressed, so I decided to order them through my favorite dealer.

I was told I'd be waiting 8-10 weeks for the cymbals to be made in Turkey and shipped by boat. Fine, I went into this expecting that, maybe more. After the estimated time had passed, I checked in with my dealer, who was told by Bosphorus that the next boat was still about a month away. So I waited another month before checking back. Next week, I think they said.

I'm still not incredibly worried at this point because we are talking international shipping by sea here.

After half a dozen more emails, and the Bosphorus people checking through the shipment that finally did arrive...no dice. So what went wrong? I placed the order with the dealer, the dealer placed it with Bosphorus, who ordered it from Turkey, who supposedly made them and sent them...but no. They just aren't here. To top it off, the response from Bosphorus about it was a simple statement: the heaviest that came were xxx over xxxx grams. No apology to the dealer or the customer, no effort to do anything about it.

I have heard that Bosphorus customer service isn't great -- my dealer has heard it too -- but neither of us have ever experienced it. I'm really not as upset, the dealer is taking good care of me. But why would a company with a relatively expensive product and a relatively small marketshare care so little about a special order?

Here's hoping that someone from Bosphorus reads the board.

No doubt you were probably charged premium price for a special order I imagine, they should take good care of you. 2 months is long enough if you ask me, I'd ask for my money back.

yep Id try to get my money back to and then I'd tell them to stuff it and go with dream or saluda as your next custom order cymbal company. just my thought.

Not defending them by any means, but you're gauging their conduct against the context of capitalist American business standards. The Turks simply don't think that way. They weren't raised in "the customer is always right" culture like we were, (which is now dying a swift death, BTW). They don't know they owe you an apology. And, if you've seen their foundry operation, you know that a given cymbal turns out as it does, to some extent. It's not a precisely measured process.

Now, that isn't to say the someone in the supply chain shouldn't step up and address the matter of your satisfaction.

{censored}, even Sabian does custom orders now!

never heard a Sabian sound like a Bosphorus

I was making a statement that you can pretty much get customs from anyone now.

true

Sabian has done custom orders for a very long time , it is not a new development.They just didn't advertise it.It can get to be an involved process

so they don't want to be inundated with Custom orders.

You know, I hear this a lot from players, and then I hear from shops that the orders are new (like, they started two years ago). Eh, I want to give it a try some day.

From another forum, here is Bosphorus's reply:

I am Michael Vosbein, the president of Bosphorus USA. A friend hipped me to your post and I joined this forum out of concern, specifically to address your complaint....because I care. My first thought is to question the reason for your post. I've never met or spoken with you nor even known you by name, but you've opted to trash us pubically without first trying to communicate with me. As a small company we try our best to offer great customer service, as evidenced by our willingness to even accept a custom order. I mean, how many of our competitors would allow end users, not endorsing artists mind you, to order custom cymbals? None, and for reasons just like this. We did, however, and didn't even ask for a deposit. Evidently that means little to you.

I have no idea why they were not in the recent shipment from Istanbul, but gave a quick email to the dealer as soon as I discoverd that, even though I was preoccupied with visiting artists at the time. I had every intention of following up with a call on Monday, obtaining your name and contacting you personally. That will not occur I assure you, not will I ever allow you to make another custom cymbal order only to be trashed for our efforts.

My reply to Michael:

Michael, I do appreciate you taking the time to come and address this issue. I would ask that you reread my original post without prejudice and see that my intent was not to "trash" you or Bosphorus USA. I didn't name names of people involved, though I could have. It was also never my desire to put down a product that I fully enjoy.

Since you have responded publicly I will do the same, with the same purpose as my original post: that my fellow drummers can see the situation objectively.

The issue that I have is with the customer service. I was originally told that a custom order is difficult and takes a lot of extra time. At this point, it has been nearly 14 weeks since my order was placed -- but even that is not a problem for me. Communication and willingness to help the customer is the issue. I've had my dealer email at (I believe) reasonable intervals to inquire about the order, and had been led to believe that the hats would be arriving on this shipment. When they did not arrive, I was discouraged about the way it was handled. It puts my dealer in the unenviable position of giving bad news to his customer and hoping the customer doesn't hold it against him -- even though it's not his fault.

Having worked in music retail for almost 15 years (no longer), I am familiar with orders not coming through for whatever reason. I am also familiar with how to remedy that from a customer service perspective. I feel wholeheartedly that my dealer is doing his best to take care of me, because my relationship is with him. I've never dealt with you personally, as you say, because you don't sell cymbals to the end-user. I didn't contact you because that's not how the chain works -- the dealer's job is to take care of the customer, so I deal with him. But when the vendor doesn't deliver, it hurts the business of the dealer -- and the vendor cannot exist without the dealer.

As for the other things you raised in your post, there is some level of custom ordering allowed from Zildjian and Sabian to my knowledge, but I have become a believer in the sound of Bosphorus cymbals. I saw the model in question available at the weight in question and was told that Bosphorus could deliver that. I paid in full in advance -- again, part of my relationship with my dealer.

I PROMISE you that I am not trying to be unreasonable. I am not upset or emotional, and I am not trying to be a voice against Bosphorus in the drumming community. But when someone here at the forum has a disappointing experience with a dealer or manufacturer, we routinely let that information be known for the good of all -- hopefully in a reasonable manner, as I've tried to do.

Sorry for the length of the reply. I look forward to speaking with you further Michael. I would be happy to call you if you like. Thank you again.

top notch response loss,top notch !

Loss, reread your 1st post, don't know why the Bosphorus guy acted so negative. Hope the problems get worked out .I did think your response to his reply was very diplomatic.

I so wish I could handle situations like this so diplomatically as you have LFG! My response to this guy would have been full of "F" bombs and finger pointing. I probably would never get my goods! I wish you the best of luck and hope you have your cymbals in hand soon!

This post by the president of Bosphorous USA does more to tarnish my opinion of Bosphorous customer service than your original post did. This guy sounds like a {censored}ing jerk off. The fact that he is questioning the reason of your post is hilarious. His company screwed you around, and you have every right to make that public knowledge. Sounds to me like he is trying to hide {censored}ty customer service. And now, rather than trying to make things right, he's basically saying "screw you" and acting as though Bosphorous have done YOU a favor by even accepting the custom order in the first place! Bull{censored}. They aren't doing you any favors, they are making money, and if it wasn't profitable for them to accept the custom order in the first place they wouldn't do so.

You don't owe them anything other than the money for the cymbals (which you have already paid), and when they don't deliver you have a right to make that known to other potential customers. Any president of a company worthy of his position would come along and say "sorry to hear about your troubles, let me see what i can do to set things right." This guy (yep, that's you Michael Vosbien) is a {censored}ing douchebag who immediately got on the defensive when you have every right to complain. {censored} you Michael, you dick head.

Loss..........hats off to for handling this situation in a professional manner as for the president of Bosphorus,he might consider looking himself in the mirror and ask who was the biggest jackass in resolving this issue. Don't let this bother you,he can't prevent you from ordering custom cymbals through alternate channels.

Thanks to all of you who have expressed support for me. A lot of people on the other forum have expressed similar things to what you have said here.

I'm really not looking to turn this into a debate. If Mr. Vosbein and Bosphorus wish to resolve this in a public manner, we can all learn by just watching it happen. My initial post was not an attempt to "get something out of them;" I'm perfectly happy, as I have a great dealer who will either credit me toward a different purchase or refund me. I only hoped Bosphorus was watching so that they could see how the average customer would view this situation. We all learn from our mistakes.

I'll keep you guys updated about what happens, including any more posts or messages from Mr. Vosbein. Thanks again.

I'm inclined to agree. His response was very unbecoming to a "president." He starts out saying he's stepping in to respond personally "because he cares." But then he proceeds to demonstrate that what he cares about is putting you on his {censored} list because you aren't appreciative enough for the opportunity to place a custom order and have it go unfulfilled.

Actually, it's not that surprising. Generally speaking, the quality and competence of American executives has been on the decline for about a decade. He'd have been better off having one of the company's doers handle it. He's obviously not proficient in the area of customer interfacing.

Quit it loss, don't trash them for their efforts. Lol, I guess the effort is to provide special orders, so basically he's saying don't trash my custom order income. That's pretty sad. They are a cymbal company, and you clearly didn't talk trash on the product. Well a customer of any should be upset with nobody able to locate an order.

New reply from Mr. Vosbein:

OK. Let's start over. I admit I got my dander up. From my point of view, I had done everything possible to accommodate a customer. Overseas shipments are replete with elements of surprise. There are language, cultural and geographic barriers to overcome. A container can unexpectedly sit in customs for weeks. I kept the dealer in the loop. No request for payment was ever made of anyone, nor was there a premium imposed for a special order. As soon as we realized the cymbals were not in the shipment, we notified the dealer at the end of a long week on Friday afternoon.

Personalized customer service is something we try very hard to excel at, as many customers and dealers will attest to. I had every intention of following up on Monday morning. I would have personally called the dealer, then the customer himself, and offered an apology for the delay along with an incentive to remain a customer...an additional discount, a free cymbal bag, whatever it took to make a valued customer happy. I do everything I can to service our customers, but I was never given the chance. Friday evening the customer went public that we have bad customer service. Well the expected follow-ups are immediate. "I doubt I'd buy Bosphorus after hearing this..." To publically solicit such damaging remarks without first at least allowing me the chance to make good is a bit unfair at best.

I've offered an honest opinion and edited my initial response. You may, of course, disagree.

The "real reason" the customer did not get the cymbals is that they simply were not in the container. I explained upfront to the dealer that it is quite difficult to get special orders of one-off cymbals with very specific gram weights form Turkey. I made no guarantees of delivery, only to do my best to accomodate his customer. Furthermore, knowing this may be an issue, I didn't charge anybody anything. I am happy to do whatever it takes to make ammends but continue to feel I should have been given a chance to do so before being publically humiliated.

There were a lot of posts about and to Mr. V. that led me to make the following response:

Alright folks, let's do the following...

First, let me publicly apologize to Michael Vosbein for what he feels was public humiliation. That was certainly not my intention. Sir, I did not make my post on emotional impulse, and I didn't do it with malicious intent. As was stated here, I was simply being informative. Now that I know that you would be willing to speak with me personally I would welcome that, but that is not something that normally happens -- the customer can't usually call the manufacturer/vendor and get anywhere, in my experience. At any rate, I apologize for the hurt feelings.

Second, allow me to request that we as a forum do not belabor the point about Mr. Vosbein's initial response. I believe him when he says that he wants to take a step back from that. It's good to hear from someone who has dealt with him in the past and had a good experience, and I am hopeful that something good will happen when we speak. I think the best thing that can happen would be me being able to come back to the thread and say that he is a stand up guy and we should all have confidence in his company.

So again, please refrain from criticizing the gentleman -- let's show him that our desire is not to humiliate, and just focus on the facts. There is an opportunity here for Bosphorus to show good customer service after the fact, so I want to give them the chance. Thanks all.

Stop the boat,...I work for a company,Robin Guitars,and 90% of our Business is custom orders.The owner has cut guitars in half because for one reason or another those guitars didn't meet the standard of what is expected from us, these where not bad looking by any means, we don't sell seconds.Also I completely understand about customer relations and things going wrong in the process, but the company should understand that today there are public forums and other networking sites on the internet and from this you can't escape, deal with it. Again I understand things go wrong, boy do I know,And no one likes to be put under a looking glass in public,but this should be the motivation to stay on top of custom orders, we are not perfect at it either and one of our best customers is on a few forums. You the maker cannot take a defensive attitude ,this will damage your reputation faster than anything else.Having said all this I hope this situation gets resolved in a timely manner for both parties.

Mark

Mr. Vosbein's response today:

Thank you so much. Apology accepted, of course, along with an admission that I seem to have misinterpreted your intentions. I value your support very much and all I want is to be afforded the chance to make things right for you. I will jump through hoops to earn the business of my dealers and customers. Give me a call Monday and I'm sure we can work this out.