Pandora is the Future, IMO.

This is what I'm talking about Too!!! Out with the old, in with the new. It took ten years for someone to figure out how to make money in internet radio, and it's only happened in the last couple years with technology catching up to user-demand, enabling people to bring streaming music to their iPhones, and soon, to cars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/technology/08pandora.html?8dpc

I particularly like the allusion to it becoming the next AM/FM. Oh yeah, and I'm a fan of anything that is FREE FREE FREE!!!!

But this is how I think the digital music revolution is going to play out, people with good ideas are going to figure out how to make money from new market realities.

We still don't know how content providers are going to be adequately compensated, but there are a bunch of exciting new channels of distribution that are meeting the demands of consumers.

Pandora

http://gizmodo.com/5488064/pandora-the-survivor

I love Pandora even more so since I got my android phone...I can actually multitask while my pandora music plays in the background, unlike teh iphone

Why do you always have to sound like a douche?

Anyway, I'm happy about Pandora's success.

It's a great radio station.

I'm all for it (and would like to see if they can maintain profitability past the quarter - they've only posted one profitable quarter)

the article does go on to mention

The board agreed to negotiations and after two years settled on a lower rate.

which is different than piracy that you advocate. In that way, Pandora is following the "old" legal realities (which is a misnomer, the older system is to not have copyright law)

it (the free-to-end user) is ad supported "Pandora’s listenership climbed, and in December 2005, it sold its first ad. " much like traditional terrestrial broadcast - it's an adaptation/extension of an older model as opposed to a baby-out-with-the-bathwater game changing leap.

It's really been the go-to idea for "free-to-consumer content" since before the interwebz and is pretty much been the fallback for the web guys too -- it's the old game with some new tech tricks for better piping/channeling

one interesting point that's brought up

Unlike other music services like MySpace Music or Spotify, now available in parts of Europe, listeners cannot request specific songs.

which is probably a big help in being classed as a "broadcast" service.

Um, when it is FREE FREE FREE, the content providers won't get PAID PAID PAID. Which is FINE FINE FINE with most folks. Like you.

Artists will use it as a promo vehicle.....promoting the sale of their t shirts...and their 'lifestyle' products...:blah:

I got on Pandora through a good friend and I'm almost positive that it's a situation where the musicians pay to have the radio point to them. Like a payola type of deal. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to filter to the same guys alot, guys with new, big label releases, or just guys who you wouldn't normally think would be the logical progression.

As far as the future of radio? I don't think it's been invented yet....

I've tried Pandora but stopped because, they seem to play music that goes right in line with stations owned by clear channel (Name an obscure rock act, and it plays Nickelback or something - and only the hit songs mind you)

And whoever writes the bios for bands is flagrantly biased. Because clearly Layne Staley can't handle being a rock star and was mediocre anyway. Or bands like Rage, with their disenfranchised fan base, who think of themselves as being the counter culture but are really only idiots who make/listen to loud, obnoxious music. Oh and Tool, don't even get me started. They have nothing to say, have terrible, boring instrumental interludes and they brought art to rock, or is it rock to art? - well, it doesn't matter anyway, they suck.

Listen, I agree that FREE is a harsh reality for content providers. Nobody knows how they are going to survive yet when the traditional method of supporting "FREE" content - selling advertising - is becoming unfeasible.

But nobody knew how to support a "FREE" internet radio station ten years ago. But that is changing now with iPod apps, iTunes sales, streaming advertisements and everything else that has enabled Pandora to turn the corner.

I mean, nobody could have predicted an innovation like applications for hand-held computers two or three years ago.

Pandora uses ad support

It's not new, SET did that kind of stuff over a decade ago.

and it's not like that's exactly new - like the article says...they've shifted directions on quite a few things -- a lot of it is closer to the trad broadcast radio model (from the tech side, it's actually a type of radio communication)

weather Pandora will be able to stick it out or not...we'll have to see. It's only been a single quarter of profitability

The patents for those technologies take more time than that to process

hand held computing has a history behind it (early handhelds showed up in the early 80s, their utility was limited, but so was the state of computing) - it comes, it lays fallow in terms of the marketing as the tech gets better, then it comes back.

It's not some out-of-the-blue technological leap -- that's been a steady process

The inflection point happens more in public awareness and if it sticks as far as biz, not the tech -- that's under dev longer than people realize

Dude, Paulsey, you entirely missed the point of what I was saying.

The point is that technology has evolved and spread so that this model of supporting FREE content to consumers is viable as a business.

Pandora uses ad support, in addition to other revenue streams.

But if you knew that iPod apps would become a billion-dollar market two years ago, then, damn bro, you're something special.

awesome article. right on

I was commenting on what you were actually saying - that's why I used the quote function

1) we don't know that it's viable yet - Pandora could be a rarified example and they've only shown one quarter of profitability in abt a decade...that doesn't put them in the black

2) The FREE (to consumer, it's not free to the advertiser) model isn't an artifact of the new tech - Trad broadcast has been doing it for decades

and that's the free-to-consumer stream, the one they had to implement to survive...ad supported -- that's the old school - that's radio mkii - the end quote in the article even talks about that

that ad supported stuff is not from new tech

Let's review

I mean, nobody could have predicted an innovation like applications for hand-held computers two or three years ago.

Then

if you knew that iPod apps would become a billion-dollar market two years ago, then, damn bro, you're something special.

that first comment you made is about predicting innovation (that's tech), the second comment is about predicting the market (that's biz)

that's that and if it sticks as far as biz, not the tech part I'm talking about

We knew it was coming and while it seems big - and it is pretty good growth that we've seen there sure, but consider the overall game segment is still, about $20 billion

So even knowing the tech is coming doesn't necessarilly make it the best investment ground (apple tried it before with the newton, ) because we not only have market acceptance issues, there's also the question of fragmentation (first it was all iphone, now we the the droid-based stuff making a move and the newer gen Windows mobile platforms are coming online)

but the tech - the tech's been in constant dev and gets incrementally better

[having application space on a smartphone is not new (the Nok 9000 is about 14 years old - IRRC that was 386 based) though I think the Euromarket (at least in the 90s) had greater acceptance than US markets, the RIM products (blackerry) are about 8 years old, my old sanyo 7050...GPS, web browser, java support..games, productivity apps]

I think we're circling a similar point but thinking about it differently.

1) Here's what I understand about Ads on the internet: They're worth a fraction of print and broadcast ads.

I think this is one of the reasons why Pandora was having such a hard time making money for the last ten years.

But with those iPhone apps putting them on 30 million new phones or whatever the number was, those new eyeballs can translate into more ad dollars. Hence, the advertising became more valuable thanks to new technology: the hand-held computer. And of course the ads isn't the only thing that helped them push into the black, but it's important.

In terms of it being viable as an ongoing enterprise, that's a great point. Especially since some people think its model - streaming content vs. on-demand- is a lame stand-in until the record companies give the greenlight to stream on-demand. We'll see about that.

But I find the fact that they have been able to finally start making osme money exciting and a potentially good sign of things to come for the media industry.

2) And yes - I the free to consumer model as we have known it is an artifact new technology. OF course there is nothing new about selling ads to support content. But the model is broken until people figure out how to make online ads more expensive and until they find other revenue sources.

I guess I agree with you about confusing technology with market innovation. I tend to blend those things together. I'm no tech person. I think a technology is only as good as its practical application. And a big practical application is using it to make more money

But I'm fascinated by how technology seems like some kind of double-edged sword. You can produce and bring to market all this stuff so cheaply now, which is great. But it means you can't make any money doing it.

Pandora is an example of a company thrashing around and figuring out how to make money doing it.

They actually put more earballs on the ads, and that's one of the things, they are putting the ads back in-line (with the content),, which is an old moderl

Like you say, you aren't a tech guy and can confuse the tech with the biz. The hand-held computer is old stuff. Even the "non-conne ted" players are... handheld computers (they can run apps) and smart phones are 15 years or so old.

So this tech of "handheld computer" seems like new tech, it's not

Probably the biggest improvement is the bandwidth across the mobile networks, that's the radio communications part (those are RF packet networks - that's radio) not so much the computer part

The funny thing is, the newer tech has allowed the ads to be separated from the content...which hasn't worked out too well (even for Pandora in the past - with text ads, etc) -- so they've moved to the older model which doesn't leverage that newer tech, but follows an older tech model with the ad content inline

We really don't know, it could actually be the lynch pin . They are currently privately held, so those numbers aren't exposed

but some numbers are like I think the last quote i heard that abt 90% of the traffic is through their free-to-consumer part (which is the part that uses ad support)

streaming can be on-demand. On-demand is a species of streaming - on demand that isn't streaming is very old -- that's just locally stored

Some of it might be b/c you aren't a tech guy, internally it's still a hard, long, expensive process - these things appear to 'magically' pop out of nowhere, but a lot of that is marketing spin "We introduce to you a quantum leap in the evolution of the phone" and people just not aware of how the tech works

Pandora hired a lobbyist, ran on multi-millions investment and ride an infrastructure that's taken a couple of decades and a lot of investment

That's where we have to be careful, that excitement -- the tech bubble mki was built on that, tulip bulbs were built on that and marketing feeds that view.

We hear about big winners and sometimes big losers and unusual stories, but the in the trenches stuff...we don't hear so much about... and "hand held computers" just automagically appearing in the last couple of years, and that it's going to change the whole nature of economics.

But when we look at profitability as the target (like you say, when it comes to the practical solution) we see variations on established models with, sure, improvements in tech.

People don't even bother learning the second part of "information wants to be free" - they just choose the part they want to hear

it's like

"I'd go out with you, but you are a dirtbag"

and just hearing the "I'd go out with you" part

I mean I'm pulling for tech to succeed as much as anyone, probably more than most as I'm in tech (a special type of industrial automation myself) - but I guess at the same time I've been through the marketing promises and can understand the tech behind the curtain so it's a lot less of a "brave new world" for me and more business as usual.

That's an interesting point of view.

I'd never really thought about the influence marketing has on consumers' perception of technology. That's an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to getting people to open up their wallets. Interesting.

I like what you say about ignorant advocates of free technology too. That's pretty good.

Sometimes I'm glad that I'm not that smart. Questioning your convictions can be such a chore.

Are you trying to bait me Croaker?

Well - it worked. Good job! You're clearly a master-baiter.

Pot...kettle.....

And baiter is spelled: bait-er ...... so it would be master bait-er.....

Really? Pot-Kettle? Master bait-er vs. master-baiter?

Dude, you realize you just took the time to school an improper jerk? You can give yourself a hand too.

Improper jerks happen from too much master-baiting..........

That's pretty good. That's funny. Bravo. I don't know if I can top that... I guess I'll hate to stop .... Milking it here... Ugh...

You really should stop milking it....

One improper jerk and someone could get hurt..........

Pandora http://gizmodo.com/5488064/pandora-the-survivor I love Pandora even more so since I got my android phone...I can actually multitask while my pandora music plays in the background, unlike teh iphone

I have an android with pandora. I turn it on and plug into my car stereo as a music source and at home plug it into my main stereo systems as a music source. It turns my android phone into an iPhone on steroids. 'Course, it's probably available on iPhone too...