Stadium/arena shows, the first signs of imminent danger?

Do any of you feel that stadium rock/pop was one of the harbingers of impending danger or chaos within the music industry? When music was taken out of clubs and put onto tremendous stages and profit margins were now dependent upon the attendance of 10,000 people as opposed to 1,000.

Huge music festivals have always existed, but the single music festival concept is different than a stadium tour.

Two things come to mind:

1) Arena type shows have been around for decades-Hank Williams played huge venues back in the 30s. Back in ww2, my dad used to go to USO dances featuring Glenn Miller, Woody Herman, Count Baisie, Jimmy Dorsey, etc with crowds of over 2000 people.

2) Stadium shows didn't hurt the club business at all. The 70s-80s were the height of club work for the full time musician, when stadium shows were at their peak. If anything, larger venue shows opened up more clubs.

Hank Williams wasn't playing stadiums in the thirties! The USO dances that your father attended were closer to a festival or ball format. Balls have existed for centuries and several performers have been in attendance to these balls.

How did larger venue shows open up more clubs? Was this due to a greater demand for live entertainment?

No, but he was playing fairground and racetrack grandstands, for many thousands...he was in fact the first music Superstar, along with Patsy Cline.

Most of the arena bands started out as club cover bands. When they began hitting it big, clubs began competing to be THE place to get signed out of. They tried to get the up and coming bands, and it created a whole club live music momentum thing. In the late 70s-early 80s, the town I live in had about 15-16,000 people and had no less than 9 live music clubs featuring bands at least 4 nights a week, most of them 6 nights, along with several taverns that had weekend bands. Granted, we are on the border of a state that had a higher drinking age, so we got a lot of young people. But live music was a hot trend back then, and it was everywhere. I was on the road full time and most of the towns we played were small towns (as most towns out west are) but they all had two or three 4-6 night live music clubs.

The decline of the arena bands and the decline of the club scene is almost parallel.

A harbringer of impending danger....

Nahhh....markets ebb and flow. The increasing popularity of recorded music had more to do with "the harbringer..." around the early to mid century, then big shows. It's what created the shows to begin with. Larger shows were a result of mass media (radio and print) and inexpensive transportation. Remember, Interstates didn't start 'til the early 50's (or so).

The arena/festival big audience thing that came about in the 60's, 70's came about because of a cultural culmination of the baby boomers around rock music. The largest population of any American generation (before or since) had their music, and it was rock. And so they showed up to Kiss concerts in their dad's Buick, smokin' weed and F*CKIN ROCKIN OUT!!!!:lol:

No one is in the clubs because there is nothing brewing there....not like rock in the 60's and 70's or hip hop in the 80's and early 90's. The size of the venue doesn't take away from anything cuz the people show up for the act, not the venue.

I imagine we will see some decline. I'm not sure about being a harbinger of anything but I wonder if the arena show model will be sustainable.

I look at my own decision making with concerts as recently as 2-3 years ago with the Police. Good tickets at Madison Square Garden were something like $180 each... I knew damn well the DVD would come out at some point or be available to stream / view on cable... I figured as much as I loved the Police... no way - can't swing it.

People will always tell you that entertainment is recession proof and while that is true to a point - the last time we were in a recession concert tickets cost $15. Even accounting for inflation that doesn't come near what we pay today... so that's a concern.

Another concern is - Is the music industry producing enough marquis acts to fill the void left by the generation before... meaning - will there be enough huge household name acts to fill all the arenas we have working now in 5, 10 or 15 years time... I don't have numbers in front of me but it doesn't seem like it.

I'm not sure if any of that is on point but I often wonder what happens when the live business really starts to slip...

R

"harbinger of impending danger?"

Yeah. That's absurd. 10,000 people getting together and rocking balls is harbinger of two things and two things only: Ringing ears and hangovers.

I suppose this is really what I was referring to. If the industry can't produce enough big name acts, whats the point of pushing these arena rock shows? I know Keith Richards will probably outlive the rest of humanity with the cockroaches, but what about everyone else.

You have butchered one of my favorite film characters names and frankly I'm offended.

This is an interesting point.

The last known "arena rock band" to be signed by a major label was more than 5 years ago, and probably was Coldplay, if memory serves.

There will certainly be a vacuum when all these "geezer" arena bands drop out of the mix. There's a whole lot more shows going on than we care to admit maybe. I know that the impact of "rock band" and "guitar hero" have exploded the arena rock concert sales.. AC/DC tix went up to $300+ when they played here.

Since the majors aren't signing, are independent artists going to have a major opportunity to fill the void? I think yes.

It's funny I started thinking about all of this when I was watching Kiss on the Voodoo Fest 09 special. I suppose the real question is how can indie artists fill in the void? Maybe consistently opening for larger acts, but thats been done for years.

I remember reading somewhere that out of the 20 largest summer tours in 2009, 18 of those acts obtained superstar success over 20 years ago.

That means only 2 were new(ish) bands.

Rock music is NOT being marketed to suburban teenagers by the powers that be. Rock music is now considered to be antiquated and suitable for family friendly entertainment aimed at tweens.

I object! I definitely don't feel that rock as an entire genre has been pigeonholed as the new TGI Friday's household entertainment for families. And the marketing of each individual band is largely up to their manager, label and the group themselves.

I think the problem lies in the fact that mainstream media is not doing its job. There are still arena bands, you've got your Kings of Leon, Nickelback, whatever crappy group the guy from Linkin Park is in, they all play monster sized venues (and let's not forget the European market with big hitters like Muse and Arctic Monkeys). But they also have videos on MTV and VH1. My theory is if it's not on TV, it's probably not packing out thousands of stadium seats. But why is it not on TV?

I was going to write a really mean and snarky response but I can't tell if you're being snippy or not... You baffled me. I have no idea what you are talking about. Bravo!!!

They are doing their job just fine, it's just not interesting stuff that they support when it comes "rock" music. The most radical of Hip Hop artists get channeled into the heaviest rotation almost immediately but anything that qualifies as "rock" music will not get the green light unless it is completely void of masculinity, free of any potential controversy, and basically neutered.

Teenagers (who have always been the consumer) are attracted to fire. That's what they want, they want an element of danger. They want to break the rules and poke a stick at conventional norms. It's just what you do as a teen. So it's no surprise that Lil' Wayne is more appealing than Three Doors Down. Not to say that there isn't rock music acts out there that push the envelope, there most certainly is, but you will NEVER see them pushed by the media conglomerates. Axl Rose put an end to that with his "police and ni**ers" line. They won't touch it!

It may seem like some guys like Marilyn Manson got support from these gate keepers but I can assure you it was 100% forced down their throats. If you study that dudes career you will find very little mainstream radio airplay and selling out arenas at the same time. When it comes to rock music in the USA only geldings need apply.

Or maybe it's because Lil Wayne stays high and keeps codeine punch in his cup. There are plenty of interesting things going on in the rock realm (I'm listening to My Morning Jacket and Monsters of Folk right and those guys could pack out a stadium), but I didn't zone in on the rock world. I said stadium/arena shows

I'm just stunned at the price some groups (KISS being one) are charging for tickets. I mean, more power to them if they can sell them at that price, but I'm with the previous poster who didn't want to pay a crapload of money to see the Police.

This is a great thread. Normally I have tons to say, informed or uninformed, about any topic like this, but I'm at a loss.

It seems we agree that to get to that level you need the big push from a media machine. I'm just thinking that the ones that currently exist aren't interested in taking risks.

The reason I couched it in "rock" music is because that's who formally packed out arenas and is currently experiencing a drop off. The people who filled those arenas in the US were largely white middle class teenagers. Just based on population, that's were the numbers exist to support such an entity. Most of the bands that made it to that level appealed to teenage girls in a big way and the guys tend to follow.

So "who" is being marketed to suburban teenage girls? Let's be honest, It's pretty hard to say that Radio Head isn't a great band with mass appeal but I doubt you're going to see a poster of those fellas on a teenage girls wall. Not in comparison to someone like David Lee Roth.

I agree, some of the bands you mentioned have the potential but they are not getting the big media push needed to break into that level. One great example is Taking Back Sunday. What the hell else could that band POSSIBLY do that they haven't already accomplished. Yet, they never quite got to that level. They never got the big push. In the past 10 years I bet AC/DC got 40 times the mainstream airplay that Taking Back Sunday recieved. It's not just the radio either. Its all the way up and down the machine.

Sometimes your posts really confuse me lol. You mention Taking Back Sunday and say they've accomplished everything, yet you act as if Radiohead is some kind of back burner act waiting to explode. In reality, Radiohead popularized their own model of releasing music ie the Radiohead model. They've been honored by the Grammy committee and think of all the politics and bs associated with that and they actually do pack out stadiums. Taking Back Sunday never did that and they don't even appeal to as many people as Radiohead. Why are you so concerned with what white middle class teenagers think?

It's their parents with the disposable income who are paying $300 to see the Police and it's music geeks with blogs and the like that are spreading the word now without a mass media machine.

The mass media machine has failed.

First off... you come here 40 some-odd years after the phenomenon starts and ask this question? I mean, rally, hindsight beig 20-20 and all...but the answer is no.

The Beatles were playing stadiums, Elvis was playing stadiums, the Who, Stones, Elton John...I think, if anything, it was a measure of success...and a measure of the excess that rock became...which is why it has been dying a slow and sad death for thirty years (although part of it lives still in the country markets, oddly enough). And guess what part of the music industry will continue to sell out arenas in the future...yep, country artists will.

But was it (stadium/arena shows) a symptom of inevitable decline of the entire music industry?

No, that was disco (j/k)...it was really the sudden factionalization of the trends/trackers... Billboard's Top 100 fell part, everyone wanted their own category at the Grammies...there was no 'guidance' in the biz...everyone was out to make their own nut, and it didn't have to be the biggest nut anymore, or even a big nut, just a nut...everyone had a number one hit...on some chart...so what did #1 mean anymore? This also spelled the demise of top 40 radio, long the key support behind the entire markeing process in the music industry....

I couldn't find the link in English but the clip below sums it up. The South Park Guitar hero episode. Cartman says to Randy - "Real guitar is for old people" ... makes you wonder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTVfX6JpswQ&feature=related

I suppose I'm confused also. I never meant for anything to read as though I thought Taking Back Sunday was more successful than RadioHead. I'm just pointing out that "in my opinion" stadium tours died because it was teenage girls that filled those stadiums and the things that appeal to them are no longer getting the big media push.

Just feels like a huge hole in the market that is being neglected. I can see how a 12 to 13 year old is going to go nuts and pack arenas for The Jonas Bros or Avril Lavinge but I can't see 16 year old girls dropping $40 to go see Three Doors Down. Certainly not anywhere near the kind of numbers that once did for silly stuff like Cinderella back in the day when that was on MTV every afternoon.

Sorry I wasn't born pre-1975

Sorry I wasn't born pre-1975

kind of my point, sab...this has been around all your life...did you ever think that was a harbinger? Of course not. We who watched it grow...?? nah...we were too stoned...

Yes ; they were the baby boom generation. They did'nt have as many kids as their parents had . The population is more diversified now , less homogenized and therefore harder to mass market too.

The middle class does'nt have the buying power it used too. Smoking bans , hyper punishments for DUI ( even number one gets you a ton of bricks dropped on your head now), Big screen tv's and concert DVD's for the prudent who Drink alone safely at home whilst playing guitar hero.

Arena Concerts and clubs that are not close to public transportation are toast.

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