Funny list for promoters, club owners, and good bands

sorry if this has been posted before, but as a part-time promoter I found this hilarious. Just the other night got word that some ex-bandmates said they'd play on one of my shows for $500. Now they of course can only bring in about $180 of tix, if they're lucky I can get hungrier bands that will play for free and will draw 60-80 minimum. I still end up paying them, but I don't offer that up, until they prove themselves worthy of receiving any cash.

Anyway enough rambling here's the list.

Top 39 Annoying Things That Bands Do

1. Bands that feel compelled to bang on their drums and guitars in an annoying display of lack of talent before the doors open. Usually this occurs when we are trying to talk to someone on the phone or give instructions to employees. There is a place for this type of behavior, its called your basement.

2. Out of town bands that show up and say "We decided to bring another band with us, don't worry, they just need gas money and pizza."

3. Out of town bands that watch you order their pizzas with "the works" and after they arrive tell you "Oh, we're all vegetarians, can we get buy-outs instead?"

4. Local bands with managers.

5. Local bands that have a girlfriend as their manager (Can you say annoying pain in the ass?). This usually marks the beginning of the end for most bands at the Creepy.

6. Bands that bring their own "personal" sound-tech. After seeing him try to operate the soundboard for 5 minutes the house soundman concludes that this guy has absolutely no clue how to operate a PA. Accordingly, the band sounds like total {censored}.

7. Bands that have more roadies than band members.

8. Bands that spell their names with a strange spelling twist e.g., junkeez, katz etc. After meeting the band, however, we are left with the impression that they didn't intentionally try and spell their name with a twist but rather they probably just don't know how to spell.

9. The out of town band that was lucky to get the gig, brought absolutely nobody, bitched all night long about their time slot, when told they had 1 song left in their set play 4 more anyway who when being paid out $50 in gas money asks "Is this the best you can do?"

10. Bands that arrive and state that they talked to someone at the club and were told they get to play 3rd at 10:30 and can play for an hour. When asked the name of the person they talked to they suddenly forget their name but are sure they talked to "someone".

11. Bands who all arrive at the same time but no one is willing to play first. Subsequently the show doesn't start until 11:30 and everyone has 10 minute sets.

12. Top 3 signs that the band will bring no one to the show - 1) 2 Weeks before the show they say "We're gonna pack your place!" - 2) 1 Week before the show they ask - "What's your capacity?" - 3) Upon arriving at the gig they ask "So how many people do YOU usually get on a Wednesday night?"

13. Bands who draw is so bad that even their guests don't show up.

14. Bands who have no guests because they have no friends.

15. Bands who bring absolutely no one to their first gig and then call back incessantly to ask for another show and can't understand why they haven't gotten asked back. That's fine, we don't have to eat this month and we really dig watching you guys rock out to our empty club. Bands who fit this category don't need to bother calling back because the booking guy will always be away when you call.

16. Bands who after drawing no one at the end of the night apologize by saying, "geez, after you booked us we booked ourselves to play at the Hi-Pointe last night and we told all our friends to go to that show, that's probably why no one came tonight. BTW, when do you think we can play here again?" (Note: see above for our response).

17. Bands who pester you to book their bands "side-project". Side-project is another name for self-indulgent crap so embarrassingly bad they can't dignify it with a name and gives them a cover why none of their friends will come see them "perform". (Would you go see your friend masturbate if they asked you to come watch?). Note to bands: think of your side-project as a project never to get booked again.

18. Bands who show up wearing "All Access" laminates around their neck. (Note to these bands: We honor these laminates for the bathroom and parking lot areas only.) I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up but you don't see me walking around wearing a spacesuit at the club. We're convinced these people are recovering air guitar addicts from the 80's.

19. Bands who right before their set ask to play without a PA so it won't be deducted from their pay. (This has actually happened before). Sure, we'll just ask the sound guy to go home for a 1/2 hour.

20. Bands that want to play in front or the side of the stage.

21. Bands that suck and then ask if you'll swap them out a shirt. You know, our shirts actually cost us money and I really doubt anyone at the club wants to wear your shirt. How about if we swap stickers and call it even?

22. Band members that ask 10 times throughout the night for a water or soda (usually in a nasally whining voice). Typically this occurs when your in the middle of doing something important like counting down the drawer or dealing with actual paying customers. They usually like to precede their requests with a "Do you think its possible I could get a...." etc. etc. We feel like responding "Do you think it's possible you could shut the {censored} up and go away?".

23. Parents of bands... this could be a whole top 39 list on its own... Parents who either a) insist on standing next to the owner all night and talking his ear off about how great their 14 year old kids band is (who BTW sound like they had never picked up an instrument in their lives before they started "playing" that night) b) insist on standing next to the the soundperson all night and making stupid suggestions on how to improve the sound of their kids band to the soundperson all throughout their set c) going to the bar while they wait for their kids band to play, consuming way too much, and then going to stand next to the owner and talk his ear off about how he used to jam in a band that was huge 25 years ago but now their kids band is going is going to hit mega-stardom any day now and makeup for his missed.... oh right, this is only supposed to be a paragraph.

24. Bands that leave gear behind. This happens at least several times each week and then we get the deluge of frantic phone calls in the following days about have you seen this or that piece of equipment and on the phone act like we should know where their stuff is. Its amazing how something that is so important to them the next day gets so carelessly left behind the night before. We're the Creepy Crawl, not Bob's Nightclub and Repository of Leftover Band {censored}. Keep track of your {censored} and take it with you when you leave!

25. Bands that send us emails that say: "We're XXX from XXX. We wanted to play your club on XXX date. How about if you book us a show, put a bunch of good drawing locals on that bring a lot of beer drinkers and then you guys can make a lot of money and we can put on a great show in front of a big crowd and get paid. That way we all win!" Here's an idea, why don't we book a show with a bunch of good drawing locals that bring beer drinkers, we make a lot of money from the show and you can keep your sorry asses the {censored} in XXX? (Really, we're not making this stuff up, we actually get these emails).

26. Bands who when you tell them they have 1 more song left because they're running late into their set decide to play a 45 minute opus full of self-absorbed guitar solos which in the course of playing covers in its entirety side 2 of Pink Floyds' Dark Side of The Moon.

27. Bands that pester you constantly to open for a particular touring band because they swear they worship their musical footprints and are the heaven endorsed guiding light of their musical lives. On the day of the show and after you told them sorry but the show was already filled up they don't even bother to come to the show. However, someone at the show reports hearing they decided to catch the Story of The Year show at the Pageant that night.

28. Bands that can't play longer than a 15 minute set.

29. Bands that can't draw two people but keep telling you that they can play as long a set as you like. "We can play an hour, an hour and a half, two hours if you want." That's kind of a like a doctor rushing to the scene of a car accident and asking the victims "If you need me to help prolong your bleeding I can do that."

30. Bands that bitch and beg to play a longer 45-50 minute set. They do this knowing everyone else only gets a 1/2 hour slot. We finally relent and rework the whole show to accommodate them and they still wind up playing the same rush-through-it-because-we're-dip{censored}s 23 minute set they play every other night they play. Apparently they live in a different time dimension than everyone else on the planet. They thank you profusely at the end of the set for letting them "headline" for their fans but we make sure they buy us and everyone around us shots at full price.

31. Bands that give big lectures on stage about how important it is to support "the scene" but at the end of their set want to get paid ASAP and don't want to wait until the other bands get done.

32. Bands that give long-winded lectures about respect... how we need to respect each other, the world we all live in, ourselves, God, our fellow man, other "artists", Picasso, Left-handed midgets, respect this, respect that etc etc... What are these guys in the Mafia? The next morning you discover the parking spot they were parked in the night before is completely covered with empty water bottles, soda cans and Taco Bell.

here's the rest..

33. Bands that are booked for a show but email every 12 hours to tell you they have changed their name and to please update your advertising. Call yourself Bobby & the Blowjobs for all we care, pick a name and STICK WITH IT!

34. Pathetic reasons why bands cancel. Bands that cancel 10 DAYS ahead of time because they have to go to a funeral! We feel so sad for these bands. Geez, I didn't know your grandpa was being stored on ice for 10 {censored}ING DAYS! Who is he, Walt Disney??? If your going to friggin lie, try and come up with something half-way believable please.

35. Shows where the 4 local bands collectively can't outdraw the one out of town band you threw on the bill for gas money but through their own initiative and hustle actually manage to outdraw the 4 local bands (this BS actually happens!) We feel sorry and embarrassed for the out of town band who usually when getting paid out their gas money ask us quietly "whats up with the locals, who don't they have anybody come see them?" and we tell them as loudly as we can "BECAUSE THEY ARE PATHETIC & RETARDED LOSERS". Invariably (and we do mean invariably) their has to be the one local band who shoves the out of town band on the way to the door guy, lives 20 minutes away and brought a negative number of people, (they sucked so bad they ran off our happy hour crowd early) ask how much did they make and we tell them zero "BECAUSE THE BAND FROM 1/2 A CONTINENT AWAY OUTDREW YOUR PATHETIC AND RETARDED ASS". Actually we don't say that because we're so pathetically nice, we usually say " you guys rocked, let us know when you want to play again!".

36 - 38: Bands that don't correctly understand the definition of these terms -

Load-In Time

CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: If a band has a load-in time of say 6:30 from that time they may attempt to enter the premises and inquire about loading in of their gear. If they by chance happen to arrive early they can occupy themselves with other activities to fill in the time, such as: visit the library, worship at a local church or synagogue or beating up the homeless guy living in the dumpster.

INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING: If a band has a load-in time of say 6:30 they arrive at 1:45 in the afternoon and knock incessantly on the back door. Usually they knock while the owner is in the basement knee-deep in standing {censored} working with a plumber to fix a leaking drain pipe. After trudging all the way upstairs to find 5 snot nosed kids asking if they can load-in now (and hang out all day!) they are politely told to {censored} off and come back at 6:30.

Promoter

CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: This is a person who actively works to promote a show. They promote by distributing flyers, plugging the show wherever they can and try to get as many people as possible to come to the show. If they have an out of town band booked on the show they take financial responsibility to ensure they get paid and are taken care of in whatever way they need. They also take charge in organizing the show and making sure all the bands know when they are scheduled to play and how the money works for getting paid.

INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING: This is a person who after asking repeatedly to put on a show does the following 1) fails to promote show in any way 2) fails to communicate any show details like lineup or order of the bands to the club (or the bands themselves) 3) makes themselves very scarce at the show , assuming they show up (they sometimes make a pathetic phone call just before doors to say they've just contracted a rare disease called pussyitis and to please take care of the out of town band). If they do show up and when questioned about things like band order, who's taking care of the bands etc. only respond with a blank stare.

Gas Money:

CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: Gas Money is a term used to designate an amount of money to get a touring band to their next show. It sometimes includes a little more than that so they buy themselves some fast-food on their way or if they are lucky enough to cover a room at a Motel 6. Generally gas money would be considered anything from $30 to $75 and depends on how well the show goes.

INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING: $200 is not gas money. $200 is we're partying all night on the East Side and getting privates at Roxy's for everyone in the band.

Touring Band:

CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: This is a band that is engaged on a "tour". They come to the Creepy Crawl while on their tour and often come from far away places such as the far corners of the country, Canada, Europe or Asia. They are on the road for extended periods of time, sometimes for several months at a time, in a van or bus and experience many new places along their journey. These bands are always entitled to at least gas money or more.

INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING: Driving up from Festus does not make you a touring band.

A "Following":

CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: A "following" is a collection of fans that attend the performances of a particular band. This is what bands try to develop to get ahead in the business and grow over time and is a measure of their general popularity. The larger a bands following generally means they will be booked more often and on better nights at the Creepy Crawl

INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING: A "following" does not mean all the people that attended The Queens of The Stone Age show you opened for to cover the last minute cancellation of a contractual local opener counts as your bands following (perhaps the rush to the bar by the entire club and club staff when you started playing was an indicator). And, yes, this means the Jager girls at the club that night probably didn't come to see you and probably won't be following you to your next show.

39. Bands that read this list and then send us emails like this one - click here

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here's the email sample.

"dont take this the wrong way i am just a guitar player but ur annoying list was some what funny, but it makes u guys seem like a bunch of pricks u would not have ur joint with out the annoying bands. i frequent ur place when my friends play but if u dont treat the bands that deserve respect with respect they will not play shows and tell others and so on and so forth just a little concernced."

rick branstetter

... This is just a small sample of annoying things that bands do that we came up with at the Creepy. We could go on and on with this....

sorry if this has been posted before, but as a part-time promoter I found this hilarious. Just the other night got word that some ex-bandmates said they'd play on one of my shows for $500. Now they of course can only bring in about $180 of tix, if they're lucky I can get hungrier bands that will play for free and will draw 60-80 minimum. I still end up paying them, but I don't offer that up, until they prove themselves worthy of receiving any cash.

I wanted to point this out....

You say that the band at the beginning of your post can only bring $180 worth of tickets, but is asking for $500...

Why not offer to pay them the $180 that you think they can bring in, instead of adding to the problem of bands playing for free? I'm in a band now that is having a hard time getting paid for this very reason, because other bands out there think it's the cool thing to play for free...

Don't fall into this thing. If a band is playing, pay them for their efforts. They are providing you with a service. If they are overcharging you, then bring that point up, and work out a compromise. But you are doing a great, great disservice to bands by allowing them to play for free.

Would you book this show yourself for free, with no profit going to you at all? I doubt that you would. Why would you think a band would want to do the same thing? You are profiting from their services that they provide...the LEAST you can do is pay them something.

Don't get me wrong I DO pay the good hardworking bands. I have had a few shows(mostly when I first got started promoting shows, a very painful learning experience) where bands knew for months that they were only getting paid if they sold a min of 20tix(with 5 bands that is JUST enough to pay for the club, I would be just be breaking even, or at a loss if you factor in flyers, tickets, gas money, etc).

What actually happend? well, no one brought anyone! I take that back, they brought about about 6-10 "band roadies" I told the groupies to pay up or the show is canceled(not trying to be a dick, but you try eating $1500 with a smile) I got about 10 people to pay up. The money went straight to the club owner, and then these bands had the balls to ask me for money The only people who showed up as willing, paying customers were people that saw the flyers my friends and I put up all over the place.

I have played many shows for free in older bands i've been in, but I would never go to a club owner and say "hey, we need $1000 to play here" my bandmates and I understand we're not Slipknot, Metallica, Kid Rock, Phil Colins, etc.

A lot of local bands need to understand this as well.

Hell, we even play for free from time to time, just to work on our stage presence.

What few bands understand is that it takes money to throw on a show and all club owners/promoters ask for is a minimum ticket sale. For example in the begining I was out $1500 in one night for a terrible show. Nowadays I can book a club(anywhere from $400-$7000 depending on the venue) book a national act for $1500 and have the place packed and turn a good profit. Why would I waste $1500 ever again for local bands(or even a regional acts, though they tend to be more professional) when I can book a big name band throw a few locals under them, and have a good night?

Most metal bands are in the $1500-$3000 range + travel & lodging if they're coming from out of town. bigger metal acts can be in the $10,000+ range, but I don't bother with bands that big.. Too risky IMO.

See, here's the thing, though...

ANY band that plays on a stage for ANY booking agent/promoter/whatever that is receiving a profit from the bands that are playing should receive money...the amount is negotiable from band to band, venue to venue, but they should be paid. Without the bands, the booking agent/promoter is not going to make a dime. They owe the bands some kind of monetary payment. Period.

Like I said before, a startup band shouldn't start asking for $500 per show right out of the bag, no. The price that the band should ask for should be fair in regards to their experience and draw. If they can't draw anyone, then it's up to you to come up with a base price that you are willing to pay the bands...and that base price should never, ever, ever be nothing. It would then be up to the bands to decide whether or not it is worth their time to play the show, the same as it is your decision as to whether or not it is worth your time and money to book the band.

Bands should not play for free...period. Gas money, food money, something..but not free...not if the person putting on the show is making money.

I've played in a band before that couldn't get paid for anything...because the bookers/promoters all over the area just would not offer any kind of price, no matter what we asked...we couldn't even secure $20 for gas when the gas prices soared to almost $4 a gallon...and we were having to take seperate vehicles to get to those shows.

This is just one of those things that gets under my skin. I know how hard it is to try and make any kind of money to keep a band going...it all turns into a vicious cycle. The bands say that they'll play for free, which of course is fine with the show bookers, who in turn decide to turn down bands that ask for a price to play.

So then every show turns into a pay to play scenerio, for every band in that area...and pretty soon, that starts to catch on all over the place, and after a while, NO bands will be able to get paid because all the bookers require bands to play for free, and alot of bands out there are stupid enough to take them up on the offer for "exposure".

If you're in a band, do NOT play for free, no matter how small the venue, no matter how small the show. Even if you only get paid $5, that's SOMETHING.

Think about this:

You said that you ate $1500 on that show you are referencing. In the band I was in, we paid $400 for recording a CD, $200 to have them pressed, $75 in gas once we got a vehicle that would hold all of us at one time, $100 on a trailer to pull our equipment, and $25 on a table to set our CD's out to sell.

We wouldn't be able to see many CD's at these shows...the most we sold at one show was $120 worth...so take that out of the $600 it cost us to get those ready to sell, and that leaves $480 to make up, and add that to the rest of the money spent to get to the show...it comes out to $680 in cost just for one show, where we didn't get paid a dime...we were told that we could play for just the "exposure". Yeah. That really helped us out...and we were naive enough at the time to take them up on the offer.

$680 is a lot to a band that isn't making any money doing anything.

That's the point I'm getting at...it sucks for ANYONE to lose money...so why make bands go through that??

One of the recurring things I see in this list is that it is up to the band to bring people. Shouldn't the club have some responsibility for this too?

For example...

There's a certain bar near where I live. They book live music for every Friday and Saturday night. They only book GOOD bands. Not bands that suck but bring their friends. GOOD bands. So the place is always packed because people like me know that if I want to see live music, I can go to that bar and whoever is playing that night is going to put on a good show.

I, and plenty of others, go there regularly without having any idea who is playing. All we know is that if you go to this bar on a weekend evening, you will see good live music.

I see this as a testiment to the bar owner who is running this model. He has established a reputation in the area as the place to go locally for live music. And he is rewarded by always having a packed bar every weekend night. Because the same regulars keep coming back because they know a night there you're not gonna go wrong.

Isn't that the right model? It puts it on the owner, and it puts it on the band. If you're not good, you're not playing. Everybody wins. Everybody makes money.

And I've got a place to go watch good live music.

The promoter part was certainly right in the case of every promoter in my area. F'n crooks, every last one of them...

Calling or writing three bands on Myspace, isn't promoting. That's called booking a show. If I'm supposed to sell all of the tickets, pay for all of the advertising, etc. than why do I need you or should you receive a cut?

I disagree with not paying bands anything either, UNLESS they are the type of band to call me a week before the show saying "yeah, we got a party bus, 40+ people are coming" and then the day of the show "well, blah, blah, excuses, excuses, excuses" nothing pisses me off more than that.

For example, you want $680, No problem but can you do 85tix at $8, 68tix at $10, 56/57tix at $12, etc. If so, I'd GLADLY book and promote your band, HOWEVER if you can only sell 2tix don't waste my time. After all is said and done, I have paid $680 for booking, about another $100 for ad space, and another $200 for flyers, and another $1000 paying for the club so you don't have to, then another $30-$40 per band for for food, than another $15-$20 for drinks per band, etc, etc.

Than the soundguy needs money, If we're doing a DVD shoot may as well tack on another $1000, etc

It gets damn expensive. Now I am investing roughly $840 into your band another $160 and I could book a national act! They'd mostly be hasbeens at that price range, but still profitable. Now if your band can do 100tix @ $10, i'll glady pay you and book you on a show. In fact if you can actually do that, hit me up on PM and i'll book your band in the next month-month 1/2

This industry is a weird one for sure, and a lot of people lose their asses everyday Promoters, Club owners, and Bands alike.

It's not about being pricks, but club owners, booking agents, promoters, etc take big risks supporting local music and if every band got paid damn near $1000 per show, there'd be few clubs left to play in as every club around would be bankrupt.

Which at this point may not be too bad, They might be able to get bailout money

The one thing i've done recently and it seems to work(although you probably won't get the $680) is for every "X" amount of tix sold you get an increase in profit per ticket. If you sell 20 tix and get $2 per ticket you got $40, if you sell 60 tix at at $5 a pop you got $300. still not what you're asking for but, I still don't lose my ass, and the club stays happy.

There's no perfect way really and it does very from genre to genre and from band to band and from venue to venue.

EX. A pop music concert is a really easy sell(I.e profitable), underground death metal on the other hand.... not so much(and metal bands, are the worst of any genre, even though I love playing death metal, I rarely see many professional metal/death bands)

You should advertise your band, just because. But yes it's the promoters/booking agent/club owner to advertise as well. All that should not rest directly on your shoulders.

That's a very good model...However you're describing more of a bar & grill with live music correct?

When a place does nothing but music(aside from the overpriced bar stands), they have to have bands that sell tix, wether they are good or not, or they will sink.

You should be pushing tix, just because you want an established history of your draws.

For example "XYZ label" likes what they hear, and want to know about your band. What can you tell them if you only rely on the venues to sell your bands tix?

When you hustle for tix, you can say well at this show we sold "x" amount of tix and this one "y" amount of tix.

It's like a resume for your band. It's a way to gauge your potential. It will make the decision easier for labels when deciding who to sign and who not to sign.

I see one constant that I don't quite get-

You say "I will gladly book and promote your band", and in the very next sentence you say "but the band needs to sell their own tix"

I get the impression that you do the minimum required to do your job. Do you actually promote or book? Do you use street teams to promote? Do you seek out and book only TOP talent? Are you doing anything other than making sure YOU don't take the hit when a band fails to bring a crowd?

I started reading the list in your OP.. and while I do realize it was written as a humor piece, it's frankly not very funny and paints bands as many things they are not. I've never seen a band bring another band with them and demand pizza.. that's just unimaginative at best.

I hope you realize that by forcing bands (that you can't successfully promote) to play for free, or near free, you are only attracting more and more bands that shouldn't be playing out, and the GOOD bands out there won't touch 'free', therefore you are lowering the bar for everyone, and the most painful part is that the average person who came out to hear live music ends up hearing "{censored}fest 2009" and leaves believing the local music scene sucks. That hurts EVERYONE.

Anyways, speaking as a guy who is in two and a half bands, and also does local booking and promotions for other bands, I shudder to think of the damage attitudes like yours cause to the bands, the venues, promoters, and other booking agents.

The bands do the minimum to get on the ticket pure and simple. For example, if you can't sell a single ticket, Why would I invest in ad space and promotion for your band? Why should I have to go bankrupt trying to support your band? You're telling me you couldn't sell 20tix? For local shows I only require 20-30 tix, with a national on the ticket it's going to be 60-65 tix? Why, because I only want bands that want to work to earn their money and the opportunity to play with bigger acts. Why give a band who doesn't want to sell a single ticket play with a national when I have another band busting their balls to get on the ticket? You see where I am coming from?

If I have 2 bands, one who can only sell 1 ticket and another who is hustling and closing in on triple digits, who do you think is going get called back? I deal mostly in Heavy Metal/Death Metal and let me tell there is a lot of LAZY bands around, who want everything for nothing. Asking for min.tix seperates the motivated from the "free riders".

Will you pay a band $200 for doing absoluty nothing to promote themselves? Aside from the fact you just spent over $200 on flyers, ad space, etc

As a promoter yourself, I am sure you've booked a band at least in some point in your career where some primadonna band gets a hold of you, you check out their myspace/website, etc book em' they tell you yeah, yeah, we will sell 40tix(or whatever you require) they show up about 2min before their set(when they were supposed to be there about 3hrs ago) sold 1 or no tix at all.

You've just invest god knows how much money into a band that didn't want to work.

20tix is a breeze, any band regardless of genre should be able to at least do that, AT LEAST!.

I have to echo this.

I completely 100% understand the risk that bookers/promoters put themselves in to book bands. Bands put themselves at the same risk...no matter what level the band is at....it's true from the kid in his parents garage all the way up to Nickelback.

Even if a band plays for the love of music and doesn't care about the money, the harsh reality is that it takes money to play for the love of the music...and that money has to come from somewhere. Most musicians that are in bands have a day job...and a great many of them (myself included) have other responsibilities that they have to pay for.

Promoters/bookers are in the EXACT same boat. It takes money to run a show, book bands, concessions, bla bla bla...even if you do it simply because you love live music. You, as a promoter/booker, can't afford to keep a high-cost show running forever with no return in profit. The money has to come from somewhere.

Bands operate the same way. The money has to come from somewhere.

I understand the business model of having the bands sell tix before being booked on the show...but is that fair to a startup band that doesn't have a following, but needs the exposure to earn the following? What if the band is really, really, really good, but has never played anywhere before, and is asking you to book them for their first show. Do you expect them to play for free simply because they have never played anywhere before? What happens if people that are walking/riding by the venue hear that band and decide to pay money to get in just to hear that band play?

The truth of the matter is that there is risk on both sides of the table here...bands are risking their time and money already spent on the band to play somewhere, and a promoter/booker is risking their money that they are using to throw the show to book a band that may or may not draw.

Look at the way things were done 10 - 20 years ago...bands asked for a guarantee, and if they wanted to play a particular venue badly enough, they would negotiate the price of their guarantee.

At the rate things are going now, there won't be any money to be made for anyone. Bands are ok with playing for free, bookers/promoters are ok letting bands play for free, and the cycle will continue until bands have to actually pay the booker/promoters.

I believe in certain circuts in the UK(someone from UK please back me up or correct me on this) where you literally have to pay the venue to play there.

As far as bands who are new(I just meet such a band about a week ago, and booked them on a show that I don't operate, but I always throw bands their way and vice versa, they are at 30tix already.)

I find it real hard to not be able to sell 20tix or so. Hit up hot topic, hit up the skate park, if your style isn't rock/metal/punk hit up the theatre, hit up jazz clubs, hit up churches, etc, etc. sell tix to people who you KNOW won't be there, but have them support your band by buying a ticket anyway.

Most bands that tell me they can't sell 20tix, are usually bull{censored}ting and just don't want to support their own band, so why should I or anyone else?

It's like me getting a job, expecting a paycheck without ever working. Doesn't happen in any business, music is business, not just fun & games. Although it is fun and has tons of perks.

I understand where this is going...but...

If you're concerned with losing money on the show you're putting on, wouldn't you do everything in your power to promote the hell out of the show, regardless of how many tickets the other bands sell?

It's the same concept of bands trying to book shows...

The band I was in, myself and the singer were the ones who always ended up booking the shows. Nobody in the band would do it except us, and then whine about us not having shows. Lazy, lazy, lazy bunch of guys.

Did I just decide to not book anymore shows until the other guys got off their asses and decided to do something about it? No. If I had done that, we would have never booked any shows, we would never have played anywhere, and would have wasted our time as a band in general. I wanted to play shows, so I worked on booking the band that I was in so that I could play shows. If no one else would do it, then I would, regardless of the fact that I didn't think I should be the only one doing it.

Sometimes, you can't just go on principal...sometimes, you just have to get your hands dirty to protect your investments, even if nobody else will.

I've not had those types of dealings. I've lost money with the best of them, but that's a rare case. What I see from you is a lot of bittnerness, rather than objectivity.

The only response I can really give you is that what I do is a little different, I call myself a booker, but I don't really fall into that category. I help bands. I go out and see the bands, meet them, talk to the venue owners FIRST, then I take on bands that DO work. Sounds like many of the bands you promote are garage bands and posers. Why do you waste your efforts on a band that hasn't at least marginally helped themselves?

Oh yes, I learned a real hard lesson when I first started promoting, I don't trust any bands to do their job anymore, unless they've proven to me otherwise.

Even before as I said, I still put up flyers, small ads, etc. Now I do much heavier advertisments with street teams as mentioned(even though bands should have street teams themselves as well), radio spots, etc

(TV spots are worthless don't waste your money on those, I learned that the hard way as well, unless you got AC/DC or someone big coming to town, it's wasted money)

In the summer I grill outside the venue for the bands, and venue staff, etc. But even then I've had bands in the past bitch about that! they wanted mcdonalds instead(no I am NOT joking, I wish I was.)

No actually I do a few big shows a year, and several smaller ones, booking a fairly complicated tour near the end of this year, which admittedly is for my own bands sake, but hey, we won't get anywhere without touring. In the beginning I was pretty jaded for sure. I now only deal with bands I know for a fact that work.

I am just pointing out that I have dealt with a lot of crap bands that had done many of the things that is in the list and I still get calls from venue owners describing many of the things listed.

For example, at one time in a certain venue the metal bands were ALWAYS jumping on the wedge monitors and destroying them. He was literally replacing them damn near every week.

So now you have to pay a deposit, It's not because he's jaded per-se, but tired of crappy metal bands destroying his equipment. Bring your own mic and destroy it, bring your own P.A. if you want climb all over, etc.

I deliever everything I promise the bands, I just ask them to return the favor. I have very good relationships with many bands now because of it. Although I did run the gauntlet of B.S. band after the next.

At first I was actually too nice, I believe. I am all about supporting music, especially local music. But you don't want to go bankrupt doing it.

and yes I did go out and take on new bands without big track records(again me being nice and trying to support everyone I could) not garage bands by any means however. They sounded great, had professional websites(better than mine is currently), but just didn't perform as expected. Once I axed them, they got pissed as if it was my fault. I'd say nowadays I only take a few risks here and there(you have to take risks ocassionally as I am sure you already know) and it's usually only because of referals from bands I have good relationships with.

I guess I have a different idea of what a musician's job is. Which is to entertain people with their music and performance. Which has nothing to do bringing people or selling tickets. A "promoter" to me is a person who promotes, among other things-he convinces people to come to the gig. He takes the risk in return for making his money.

The trend towards bands being responsible for bringing the people is what has led to many very good rooms hosting horrible bands whose main talent is bringing people to a gig. I realize that is easier and safer than booking an established group, paying them a guarantee, and living or dying on your effectiveness in getting people to come out. Hence the current sorry state of affairs.

+1000

That's the model that was used in the 60's / 70's & 80's.

But even in the late 80's owners were starting to cheap out, bringing 3rd rate bands in, to save money and ppl stopped coming to shows.

Now it seams that the owner only wants to sell beer, bring in bands that have no talent (for free) or sound like crap, no client draw and clear any clients that were in the bar out ... I don't get it ... I guess it easy for the owner ... I don't know...

I involved with a small (150 seat) concert type venue (no dance floor) in town here. They started bringing a top pro touring band in twice a month and now they are they are putting on 3 shows a week (to a packed house for each show) and the pro bands and agent are lining up at the door to play the place, it a very intimate venue for both the client and the performer. Tickets range between $20 to $80. This venue is run by musicians and has been getting rave reviews and drawing ppl in from 1 hr away. Most of the bands have somekind of awards, juno or emmy etc. ...

I have to agree with Khemical about booking and paying local bands ... most of them are sh*t, nobody would pay to see them play. Why take that kind of gamble.

BINGO!

The promoters that wrote that email and keep pushing it have {censored}ty work practices and thats the reason they can't make money and are forced to deal with {censored}ty kid bands.

Run a decent club, work with PROFESSIONAL promoters(not some ex-band member who could not but it and is trying to worm their way into the scene), and book good bands = a steady and healthy club/bar.

What's really funny about this "list" is that it's from a local club here in St. Louis, The Creepy Crawl, that turned itself into a pay-to-play venue and is now out of business. And the former manager of the Creepy Crawl now runs a placed called Fubar and is following the same Pay-to-Play mentality. Unfortunately, most of the live music venues in St. Louis are turning to this model of doing business and booking bands.

I had a club cancel a show on me for this reason. I have never, and will never give them my money again. Neither will the other 3 people from my band. Or the 4 from the out of town band that never got paid and traveled a good 500 miles, and neither will the 5 from the other out of town band that traveled like 90. Then again, this place has a horrible reputation anyways and noone really goes there to begin with.

It started as a joke (a literal joke) and ended up as an interesting thread.

I think the model of asking the band to sell X number of tickets and expecting the band to bring in X number of people is total bullsh*t for a bar.

Take a few steps back and think about it. Pretend I operate a different type of establishment. Pretend that I operate, say, a small amusement park. And in an effort to increase the amount of people who pay to come into my park, I hire a magician. Do I tell the magician "You must bring 40 people into the park or I will be annoyed?" That's BS.

Or a restaurant. I own a big BBQ place, with a pavilion out back. I get the idea to hire a band to increase my traffic. Do I expect the band to bring 40 people with them? No.

You take any business that has a regular number of customers. They decide they want live music. What they decide to pay the act will determine the quality of acts they get. If they pay nothing, they're going to get singer/songwriters willing to work for a tip jar. If they pay $500, they can get a band. If they pay more, they can get a really good band that will probably attract a good amount of people depending on where the place is located.

I'm talking about bars. A club that features live music... that's a different beast altogether. The music IS their draw. They HAVE to have groups that will attract fans. But the type of acts that go to huge clubs... do have fan bases. I saw Crowded House at a club in Buffalo. Great show, by the way. The club DOES expect the band to bring in fans, and the band does deliver. I think that's different.

+1000 That's the model that was used in the 60's / 70's & 80's. But even in the late 80's owners were starting to cheap out, bringing 3rd rate bands in, to save money and ppl stopped coming to shows.

+1000

And while we're at it, when did bar gigs become 'shows'?

Kiss is a show. ZZ Top is a show. 4 guys from outside Hoboken or Butte, MT playing a sports bar, not so much.