Transposing instruments: why?!

I really don't get why. Why is 'sounding pitch' different from written pitch? Why not just have everything the same like all other normal instruments? Why do horn players have to have everything transposed a 5th higher and have no key signiatures? Why have to choose between a Bb clarinet and an A clarinet? Why!? I understand how to deal with these things in practise, but why?!

Sorry, I'm doing my orchestration coursework and this transposing buisiness is doing my head in.

I too would like a good explanation.

I've been doing with this apparent nonsense for a long time.

On trumpets:

The key of a trumpet indicates the natural key of the trumpet, which gives the player the order of harmonics.

Eg. A C trumpet has:

Pedal tone C

Middle C

G

C

E

G on top of the staff

High C

etc.

This goes back to Baroque music, when trumpets and horns were just tubes. With the addition of valves in the 1800s, the trumpet and horn became chromatic below the 8th partial (which is REALLY high for me at least!). However, they were still tuned to the same keys, at the time usually F and I think D for trumpets.

Nowadays, the transposing instruments like the Bb trumpet, the Bb simply refers to the open pitch of the instrument. Bb is easily the most common, C is fairly common. Some very high parts are written for Eb trumpets and there are loads of others as well.

The main point is, a trumpeter can pick up and learn to read for Bb trumpet, then if the score calls for C, the notes will have the same fingering but on his C trumpet they'll be higher so he won't have to learn a new pattern. D below the staff will always be first and third valves, for instance, though the pitch will vary.

Thats the best answer I can give! It kinda runs around in circles a bit, I know, but I can't explain it better. Sorry!

wait, when you say "when its written in c they can switch to a c trumpet" you mean they actually get whole different instrument??

oh, and what is pedal tone c?

It was hard enough learning one fingering system on sax. When I see a "g" on the staff, my hand reacts reflexively to the "g" fingering. I do this on alto as well as tenor. The instruments are a 4th apart though.

It's easier to transpose the sheet music for the performer than to transpose your fingerings for the composer. That said, there are many times when you have to read a chart that is not written for your instrument. On the fly transposition is a valuable skill. It's not like guitar where you can just slide your hand up or down for a different key. We have to think about each note.

Yep. The part will call for Bb, C, Eb, piccolo, etc. trumpet.

Pedal tone C is the lowest C that can be played on a trumpet. Basically, when a student picks up trumpet the first note is the C right below the treble clef. The pedal tone is an octave lower than that. Pedal tones, on trumpet, don't actually get used in much music.

The open notes on a brass instrument (no valves down=open) have the same order as the harmonics on an open string. The 12th fret harmonic would be a pedal tone, 7th fret the lowest open note, etc.

For fun:

A Bb Trumpet

A C Trumpet

A D Trumpet

An Eb Trumpet

An F Trumpet

A G Trumpet

These are all Bach Stradivarius trumpets.

Ok here goes - there is some good info here and some bad...

But lets try to clear up some muddy water

It is right, the transposing instruments were designed based off of the necessity for crooks and also for seperate instruments during the Baroque and clasical periods. When one looks at trumpet and horn parts fro the day, they are very idiomatic in that they aren't much more than elaborate arrpegios. Horn players have it easier a bit, because their harmonics become closer in their playable range.

Over time, with the addition of valves and more skilled players, the need for seperate horns became less. However, there is still a timbre difference in a lot of instruments. For example,. an A clarinet is much darker in timbre than a Bb clarinet. Likewise for The Bb and D trumpets etc.

The transposition for most TREBLE CLEF instruments is not entirely based on its fundamental (that is - the pitch played when played without fingering or with minimal fingerings) but rather the pitch played when the PLAYER see a "C". When a Bb clarinet, trumpet ot anything else looks at C and plays C, a Bb comes out. If an English horn looks at C, an F comes out. If a D trumpet looks at C, a D comes out. Today this is useful so a player only learns one set of fingerings and changes horns as a part or composer sees neccesary. When a palyer sees an Eb clarinet of an F trumpet part, they read it like it is in C and the correct, transposed pitches come out.

Also of note is the families of instruments. Saxes and Clarinets are good examples of this. Their voices sometimes overlap as in the Alto/Tenor/Baritone sax. This is not much different than our voices, Sopranos, altos and tenors have overlap with their adjacent voice.

The family of voices also has to do with notation. The Transposing of instruments allows for the family of instruments to Read all the music in the same staff (treble) and have the instrument sound in its appropriate range. It prevents a player from reading extra ledger lines in order to play their parts. Piccolos are notorious for this. They transpose at the ocatve above so they don't have to read 12 ledger lines in their parts to get the sounding pitch.

Bass clef instrument are an exception. The Bass clef instruments are named according to their non-transposed fundamental of the instrument. The open note fundamental of a trombone is a Bb, so it is called a Bb trombone. The same applies for Euphonium and tuba. The Euph can be transposing, but it is a Bb transposing instrument only when it is reading treble clef... it is a spillover from trumpet players that couldn't learn bass clef - they transposed like the Bb trumpet in that case, reading the treble clef. Also of note (and the only instrumenti n the orchestra to do this) is with the tuba. They come in 4 Keys. - Bb, C, Eb, F. Bb is most common, especialy for beginners and C is most common for pro players, especially those in orchestras. The last two are smaller horns designed for chamber work and for certain orchestra pieces written by Wagner. These players change fingerings as they change horns. This is different than say an Eb trumpet player that learns his one set of fingerings and reads transposed parts. The tuba player reads the same part regardless and changes his fingering to fit the horn he is playing. It works well for he Bb and C tubas, as the fingerings become easier for flat or sharp keys, respectively. Its weird and the only thing the composer must worry about is simply writing the parts, the player will chose his axe.

The easy parralel to think about with transposing instruments is when a guitar player has two guitars, one down tuned, say to D. He still fingers like he always would, but the notes coming out are a bit different. He might stil finger a G chord, but the second, downtuned instrument would sound an F chord instead. Same type of concept applies.

the Wiki is OK for transposing instruments. Here the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument

Check out Adler's book on Orchestration, great resource.

Hope this all helps. I've been playing and writing for transposing instruments for a long time. I'm to the point when I don't even let Finale cheat for me. I enter all my parts transposed instead of concert pitch and then let the program do it for me!

I can play the B(B1 transposed as a A1 on the Piano) over an octave be low the pedal tone C(C3, Bb2 on the piano). I don't quite know how low you can go but with practice you can build your embouchure which means you'll be able to hit higher and lower notes than you imagined. On the high end, I'm still on an E6 where as generally the range calls for up to a G6. I'm not perfect though

On trumpets: The key of a trumpet indicates the natural key of the trumpet, which gives the player the order of harmonics. Eg. A C trumpet has: Pedal tone C Middle C G C E G on top of the staff High C etc. This goes back to Baroque music, when trumpets and horns were just tubes. With the addition of valves in the 1800s, the trumpet and horn became chromatic below the 8th partial (which is REALLY high for me at least!). However, they were still tuned to the same keys, at the time usually F and I think D for trumpets. Nowadays, the transposing instruments like the Bb trumpet, the Bb simply refers to the open pitch of the instrument. Bb is easily the most common, C is fairly common. Some very high parts are written for Eb trumpets and there are loads of others as well. The main point is, a trumpeter can pick up and learn to read for Bb trumpet, then if the score calls for C, the notes will have the same fingering but on his C trumpet they'll be higher so he won't have to learn a new pattern. D below the staff will always be first and third valves, for instance, though the pitch will vary. Thats the best answer I can give! It kinda runs around in circles a bit, I know, but I can't explain it better. Sorry!

And to add to the confusion every instrument in a brass band in written in Treble Clef - but not concert pitch - in Bb. The reasoning being that players can swap easily between instruments - the notes/fingerings remaining the same. All except Bass Trombone.

As others have said real reasons are historical - older brass instruments had crooks (as did some woodwind) and the player therefore needed to be told which crook to use (ie horn in D - D crook). With the new crook installed it made no difference if the notes written were the same - the actual pitches would be different.

Talk about necrobumping!

One reason instruments still exist in multiple keys is because of the tonal differences. A C and Bb trumpet are only a whole step apart but they are generally built to sound very different from each other. With saxes, there is the need to fill different registers with their sound, and to my ears the alto, tenor and bari sound different even playing the same pitches. If other woodwind players could chime in I'd be interested. I know clarinets and flutes are available in multiple keys; is there a tonal difference or is it a range thing for woodwinds?

There is a difference between my two clarinets. I have long fingers and the A clarinet being just a little bigger fits better under the fingers. It's a little easier to play and the tone is more liquid than the Bb. I really notice the difference when I play the Bb after playing the A as the Bb sounds a little hokey by comparison even though I'm using the same mouthpiece and reed and both clarinets came from the same factory. Maybe that's the problem - I should try a different mouthpiece and reed on the Bb though for some unaccountable reason I only have one mouthpiece. And finding one good reed in a box is like winning the lottery. I'm carefully preserving my current reed though it's beginning to look a little worse for wear.

Interesting that Mozart wrote his concerto and quintet for the A clarinet (though his trio is for the Bb).

A point that nobody has mentioned is that instruments are generally pitched in their respective keys because that is the natural key for that type of instrument. Also, the development of bands, orchestras etc. led to formations of instruments in particular keys. As for transposition, it's normal for a score to be written for the natural key of the instrument as it's easier to play that way. So it needs to be transposed in order to pitch the notes in the right key. And as for having two clarinets, just try playing something in five sharps on a Bb clarinet compared to playing no sharps on an A clarinet. It's all to do with articulation and the way the keywork is laid out.

Incidentally, I just bought an oboe. I had one many years ago but it disappeared, I know not where. Boy, does it have some weird fingering, never mind the strange embouchure. What surprised me was the price of these things. I got the cheapest that Selmer makes and the list price is somewhat north of $2000. I could buy a good quality clarinet or sax for that price. Luckily it was used and in excellent condition so it was only (only!) $800.

Bryan

Interesting. On trumpets, you can switch between Bb and C and use the same mouthpiece and 90% of trumpeters don't have a problem. Many of us do use different mouthpieces on higher trumpets, like piccolo, where we tend to move to a shallower mouthpiece.

The oboe is a strange beast. If I remember what my boss said during my internship correct, the oboe is still designed to be played with half-holes and the keys are designed to permit that technique. $800 is a steal!

I don't suppose there is a reed maker that can really duplicate reeds, is there? I know of a few for brass mouthpieces, but reeds seem to be very inconsistent, as any good woodwind player I know makes the same comment about having 1 out of 10 (or more? 20? 50?) being really playable.

Interestingly, the most popular pitch for trumpets during the Baroque was apparently F. Nowadays you don't see F trumpet outside of orchestras much at all! The other popular one was D, which is reasonably common though not nearly on the level of Bb/C.

I'm a horn player.

I have horns (mostly Trumpets and Cornets) pitched in Bb, C, Eb, F ... even a Fleugelhorn pitched in G.

There is the annoying situation of the C Trumpets having intonation issues in certain segments of the chromatic scale. Hence; the need of "alternate fingerings", that slightly alter the pitch towards center.

C Trumpets can be played with the same mouthpiece(s) the player favors on the Bb Trumpets; but, generally, there is some better ease with slightly larger cup / throat size. Maybe, such as going from a Bach 3 on Bb Trumpet, to a Bach 1 or 1 1/2 on the C Trumpet. The C Trumpet is mostly used on symphonic scores.