New User, New Singer, Joined the Choir!

I feel pretty awful joining a new board and blurting out questions.

Anyhow, Im a male, mid thirties, and I've always been pretty musical and interested in music. I achieved a grade two trumpet many years ago, play the bass guitar (non-professionally), and although I couldn't name a note I could probably sing it quite comfortably by ear.

My singing has pretty much been focused on singing in the car - otherwise, Im a pretty shy singer who wouldn't even have the guts to go up and do karaoke.

However recently, I've just joined the local Church Choir, and maybe there's something in singing in numbers which gives me that protection I need.

Im getting into it and thorighly loving it.

Im trying to learn more about singing and voice classification. Our director of music seems to think Im a "tenor", but I think Im baritone at the moment with an untrained vocal range of F2 to F4... At least that's the way I think it's explained.

I can sing higher and lower than that, but I think Im going into falsetto or using more headvoice. Im only just learning all about vocal breaks and the correct terminology of things from the internet.

I guess my first major question, is can a tenor count "falsetto" notes in his range, or are all the various voice types of bass, tenor, alto and soprano, measured on the vocal range achieved using the chest voice/modal range? A lot of the website seem to conveniently miss that bit out and seem to just talk about range as a whole.

My second issue, is voice preservation.

About ten years ago, I was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid. In fact I had loads of issues around this time, including tiredness, congested sinuses, and a relentlessly dry feeling throat. Feels like I have a sore throat, all the time.

My doc found the underactive thyroid, then proceeded to just blame the throat on everything from acid reflux/gerd to post nasal drip.

I have been taking thyroxine for about ten years, I've had Zantac and Lansaprozole come and go, I even take nasal sprays such as olive leaf extract which do help with the sinuses. But nothing fixes my throat, and it still feels dry and sore and my voice tires easily. No water quenches it.

It makes me wonder therefore whether there's anything around my vocal cords causing a problem as my voice seems a bit creakier than it did ten years ago. Though I do have a two octave range, I do think that this may have been diminished over the past few years, I feel that sound a bit deeper, and think I sound a bit raspier.

My doctor keeps fobbing me off, but Im keen to get a scope down and see what on earth is going on - if only for my own peace of mind. I hear about things with people with underactive thyroid, sometimes instead of swelling outwards, it can swell inwards. Then of course, is there something going on with my voice that I can nip in the bud?

Im worried about my voice getting worse, because I really am now getting keen on singing.

Am I being too panicky, or am I right to be worried, and what should I do?

Thanks

Simon

Welcome to the forum, Simon!

First, I think your concerns about vocal classification are over-stated. Categories like baritone and tenor count to some degree in classical and choral music because certain parts are written specifically for these ranges--and because of the number of people participating, changing the key isn't an option. In pop singing one can always change a key to make it fit one's voice, so we tend not to obsess about these categories. Also, modern vocal pedagogy stresses expansion of range, so even if you are technically a baritone, with some lessons you could well become a tenor. There is nothing fixed about your voice or about the categories people might use to describe it.

As to the medical issue, I think it would be worth the trouble to seek out a second doctor. Even if this doctor confirms the advice of the first one, you would at least feel more confident that there's no need for further tests.

Welcome to the forums, Simon.

First of all, it's difficult to make an assessment of your voice without first hearing you. If you're interested in getting our opinions then I would suggest posting up an audio clip of your singing.

Secondly, for your questions and concerns, what Jack said is true, there is too much emphasis on vocal classification. It is only appropriate to classify voice type if you have proper vocal training, and only a certified voice teacher may classify your voice, NOT a choir director unless they happen to be a vocal teacher (ideally a vocal pedagogue). Although many voice types might have overlapping vocal ranges, we should not neglect the tessitura (the comfortable singing range where majority of singing notes lie). For example a baritone may possibly hit an A4 similar to what a tenor would do, however it would be very uncomfortable for a baritone to sing A4's all the time! If you are concerned with your own voice type, since you have no vocal training, then I would recommend only singing within your current comfortable range regardless of what a choir director or anyone else says, and save classification for a later time.

For your question about falsetto, there is much debate about falsetto vs head voice. However there are voice types that may have a very light sounding head voice which may sound like falsetto in some cases, such a light lyric tenor, especially when their training isn't fully realized. But in most cases we do not count falsetto notes as your vocal range.

Lastly, for your health concerns, if you are worried about your voice and throat, then I would recommend asking your doctor to refer you to an otolaryngologist to check your throat and also order some scans. This will help confirm the diagnosis. Also, if you're concerned about things such as acid reflux, since I notice you mentioned taking zantac, I recommend making lifestyle changes to limit reflux, such as proper dieting, reduction in spicy foods, stress control and adequate sleep/rest.

I hope this was helpful to you.

I used to sing it the church choir? I gave it up though, Waaaaaaay too many sinners in church for me.

Welcome to the forum! Sorry I can't offer you any advice, but I do agree with Jersey Jack that you should look for a second (and maybe third) doctor's opinion. A lot of times your gut feeling can be right.

Thanks guys.

I think vocal classification might be something I will be interested in, in the not too distant future, as well as a little more training to find my voice and produce it right. I didn't mean to ask "am I a tenor" here. I was just after some of the theory of singing. It's the way I work - theory, then practice. Get comfortable with where I am and then progress.

For now I'll stick with the choir and see where that leads me.

I do think my F4 is pretty much the top of my normal range and I can hit it fairly comfortably, but after then, it just sounds awful.

Thanks for the info on whether falsetto is classified or not.

Medically wise, Im not concerned about acid reflux. It was what I had when I was first diagnosed with underactive thyroid. I've been free of acid reflux for many years though, so Im still really concerned about my continually dry throat which only seems to feel better during mid swallow. The doctor has had a look with a light and one of those wooden sticks, but I don't see how he can look down my throat that way.

If you had that kind of feeling, would you force the issue with a GP and insist a visit to Ear Nose and Throat, or otolaryngologist?

If I get a bit more confident, I'll see what I can do in terms of audio clips.

Cya

Simon

Get everything you can from your insurance.

Im in the UK. NHS over here.

Voice classification is pointless. It should be based on the lowest note you can hit, not the highest. There are many too many factors that go into it; vocal weight, range, timbre, break points...I could go on forever. It puts people in a box, and then they believe they are baritone, tenor, alto, etc. and only have a set amount of notes in their "voice type" that they can hit. I don't know what your aspirations are, but a teacher once told me I was a baritone, and could only sing up to a certain note...F4 I believe. Today, I can hit up to an F5. It's all a matter of time and practice. Sorry, that's my usual rant on voice types.

As far as your voice problem, Herbal Throat tea helps. Plus, instead of just plain water, mix in some honey with it. This will may help with your dry throat?

Oh bty, welcome to the forum

This I guess brings me on to my next question. I've heard Caffeine and Alcohol can dry the throat. Sure enough I think they have diuretic properties which encourages you to expel water, and as the vocal cords seem to rely on moisture - most likely from mucus, a runny music and proper hydration would seem essential.

Remembering at this point, Im only a layman and expousing the stuff I've read and interpreted elsehwere.

But I get confused over the concepts of drinking water with say honey, or lemon...

I hear that gargling has no effect on the vocal cords as you couldn't possibly get the water to where the vocal cords are. Surely the same principle therefore applies to lemon water or honey water... surely you swallow as opposed to inhale it?

Or maybe I don't understand enough yet.

My aspirations - first off sort out my dry throat. I want to figure that out first. I do have secret hankerings of singing in a band with my bass guitar - like Geddy Lee of Rush. I'd certainly like to focus on getting right first, the power, tone, and stability. I'd obviously like to break any bad habits to give myself optimum ability. Then I'd probably want to work on range and confidence.

Classification is what choir directors do, so I think a new member may need to take the initiative and make it clear which section he wants to be in. I'm thinking of joining a choir too, but the point would be to further develop my mezzo-soprano range, not the alto range I've been stuck in all my life. I do realize most choirs have a surfeit of sopranos..

Ok, first off caffeine tenses the throat muscles...not really a good thing if you are planning on singing that day. Alcohol, dries out the chords. Quick visualization...if you dab a it of rubbing alcohol on something, watch how fast it dries up. Same thing is happening to your vocal cords. Don't get me wrong, I drink, but never during a gig...afterwards, yes, lol.

As far as the honey water thing, trust me it works. I think I'm quoting this right, but one sip of water takes 20 min to actually do anything to your cords. The rest of your body is replenished first. Gargling first will let a little bit of the water trickle down to your cords and the honey keeps them nice and lubricated. I know it sounds weird but I've gotten into the habit of taking a sip of water and gargling before I swallow it and have no problems with a dry throat.

This is just what has worked for me. I suffered from dry throat too, mainly due to smoking...which I was finally able to kick. Hope this helps man, keep rockin!

what does your thyroid have to do with your throat, out of curiousity.

Location, location, location. It's a suburb of the throat?

How on earth does the water get down to your cords?? The cords are in your windpipe and the glottis is there to keep stuff out. You would choke or at least cough to expel the water and coughing is bad for vocal cords.

she's right. if any water got on and thru the vocal cords (and eventually into your lungs), you'd technically be drowning.

I'm serious and I'm not talking about inhaling water...:poke:

Gargling takes tension of the cords, like lip bubbles in the back of your throat. Plus, believe me or not, some of that water splashing around in there hits your cords. It's not a lot, and certainly not enough to make you cough or choke.

not the bible, but pretty damn close

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As far as voice type, yeah if your doing choral stuff, you should be placed in the section that best suits you and the choir. All I'm saying is as far as being a soloist goes, don't get stuck in the box of voice classification.

Hi all,

Thanks for all your feedback and information.

Since we last spoke, I seem to have gone from E4 to G4...

But I've come down with a bit of a cold and since then, I've got this dry tickly unproductive cough, combined with a sort of post nasal drip.

This post nasal drip, I've had congested sinuses for 10 years, I've gone through steroidal sprays, steroidal drops, steam inhalation, olive leaf extract, and my own saline spray (salt in water).

While I do have some relief and it's a lot better than before, it's still not 100%.

I still have a big cough and I keep wanting to cough stuff up.

I do feel my voice sounds hoarser and coarser, and deeper than it was 10 years ago. But I hear so many conflicting thoughts between there not being a lot that can damage a voice, to there being everything that can damage your voice including alcohol.

Im not a smoker, Im a moderate drinker, I do tend to get lots of colds and recently they do go to my chest.

Im a little bit concerned at how easily my voice tires, but then most of the songs are towards the top end of my range, so I don't think there's any problem in me skipping those notes for the time being.

As Im enjoying singing in the choir, I really need to force the issue with my docs, but then, I've seen 5 different docs over the past few years about this issue and they all do the same thing which really does nothing. It's time I forced the issue to see ENT or something.

Thanks

Simon

Thanks Weissey. I seem to be able to do say the first verse to "A Show Must Go On" by Queen for example, then my throat just aches after that and I can't do anything else and have to drop an Octave. But if I rest, I can do it again.

I've obviously been reading around the internet that talks about the voice being like a muscle and like all muscles, need to be trained. Could that apply here, or is this a symptom also of a deeper problem that should be checked out?

I guess one of my other problems, you talk about head voice and chest voice (chest voice I gather is modal voice), so with people around me in the choir pushing me for tenor, Im just trying to see what I can get out of my modal voice.

Although I really have no idea about transition between chest voice and head voice and whether that matters for being a tenor, but I know at the moment, if I just can't really hit higher than a G4 unless I start overlapping with a falsetto.

So I wouldn't be surprised by "two octave range" includes head voice too from what you've said.

Im guessing this thread is useless without sound files?

Thanks

Simon

Simon,

when you get up high like freddy mercury, and you're throat starts to hurt shortly thereafter, you're doing it wrong.

Most likely you are tensing your throat rather than using the proper combination of 1) a nice, open throat, and 2) correct tone placement in the correct resonant cavities.

i had this problem really badly, but with intense focus and concentration on open throat and tone placement, I am overcoming it.

Thanks Duke,

Is there a possibility that Im sub-conciously tensing to get over a poor vocal range, or tensing just because I don't have a very good technique and that maybe with the correct technique I could perhaps go even higher?

If as you say, I need an open throat and correct tone placement, any tips for beginners, or should I perhaps look for more for training?

Yes, it's all mental. All the "obstacles" in singing are all mental, which of course is directly tied to the physical musculature. That's why singing coaches are so big on visualization tricks.

To sing higher is going to take a combination of 1) many {censored}ups while you learn to get it right, and 2) some sort of guidance - maybe try getting 1 or 2 skype lessons with kevin richards or robert lunte, who both specialize in that sort of thing.

other tips for higher belting resonant placement: say/hell "Hey YOU!!!" Like you're in a mall trying to stop a shoplifter. Notice how that's more focused in the head than in the chest - that's the upper belt resonant cavity.

I've spent several weeks trying to understand what vocal cord "adduction" is, and I'm still at a loss. The fact is that you cannot control your vocal cords at will making them zip up - this is physiologically impossible - because you have no muscles that you can voluntarily contract to partially zip up the cords.

Regardless, this video by my friend pavorritti may be of help. Covered voice and mix voice are essentially the same. In fact, Seth Riggs et all just took the Covered Voice concept, added more twang to it, and renamed it Mix Voice

It's well known that the male passagio starts from about Eb above Middle C and extends to G#/A, where the transition to head/falsetto occurs. Mix Voice/Covered Voice is meant for that passagio region.

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