Singing out of key

It seems to be a forbidden topic here - haven't found any threads on it in the first few pages. Probably what it means is: if you can't sing in tune, why sing at all?

Well, I've been an amateur singer for a long time, mainly singing for myself and my friends and (lately) in the band. I've found that various situations influence the gravity of the problem differently. For example, when accompanying myself on the acoustic guitar, my singing is better (somehow I get on the guitar's "wave"). But when singing into the microphone in the band or while recording, it really starts to suck. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Maybe the latency is somehow responsible? Also, singing quietly is better than singing loudly. Singing the blues is better than singing rock. And so forth.

Pitch correcting software can help of course, but, you can't use it on the stage, can you? Though some of the singers I know use pre-recorded vocal tracks when stage performing, I find it a little humiliating, so it's out of the question.

I wonder, has anybody started off as an out of key singer and really improved later on? And how?

Thanks!

What kind of monitor are you using? Can you hear yourself well enough?

Seriously? IMHO, it doesn't matter how good the software is, a processed voice sounds like crap. I agree, they shouldn't be used on stage.

So did Milli Vanilli & Jessica Simpson. I'm biased, but I want to hear a real live voice.

I'd suggest vocal lessons for pitch control and a reliable monitor for live performance.

From this I infer that there exist exercises which help control the pitch. Can anyone give me an example?

Agree, but all concerts and our vocal heroes use them now.

Yeah, what happened to old heroes? When people used to sing from the heart? Can't imagine Jimi or Elvis or Ella or Janis lip syncing away to a phonogram.

True, true...except for Elvis. Don't tell me you can't imagine the possiblility of a post-70s-era Elvis lip-syching away.

I know what you mean about recording, though. I can't tell you how many times I've put down what I thought was a killer track in the headphones, then listened back on the monitors and thought, "wow, I wasn't even close!"

One thing that helps in that environment is to pop an ear out of one side of the headphones.

Vocal lessons can help for technique. I think the best thing is just practice/experiment/repeat. Being able to record yourself is helpful. Finding what(meaning range, tone, type of voice, etc.) works for you and keeping that as a solid foundation is really helpful, then building on that. Without hearing what's going on with your voice and your tracks/performance, it's hard to give more specifics than that. For me, I learned that I can't have "lazy" vocals. I believe that some folks have just naturally "in-key" voices and they can lazily croon away and it always sounds like gold. Me, if I don't give 100% to it, it's gonna be flat or just sound "off."

True, true...except for Elvis. Don't tell me you can't imagine the possiblility of a post-70s-era Elvis lip-syching away.

Yeah, you're probably right. They say Roger Waters did the same on his last tour. But in my opinion, if you're a rock'n'roll god on whom age (or excessive drug use) starts playing tricks, and you're one of those who helped architect the body of contemporary music, such measures are somehow justifiable.

Then again, if you're young and ambitious and are trying to express yourself in a tasteful way in the world saturated with all kinds of "art" (read: "crap"), and all that stands in your way is a couple of technical problems which you are working on anyway, they just keep you back, they may be justified as well.

Perhaps, but I don't really agree. Remember there are a zillion singers out there. Most of them can sing a little bit. A lot of them do rely on technology. If you want my advice, don't be the one to rely on that crutch. If you can hear when you're off, then you can fix it. It's just a matter of geology (time and steady pressure ). I say steady because you can't "force" it, so to speak. Just practice. Get some technique under your belt that way your entire body is strong and supportive of your singing. If you must use pitch correction, use it the "honest" way. Record a raw track for something that you're going to sing live or for a recording project, pitch correct it if there are issues, then go back and sing along with the "correct" track. Voila...natural, beautifully-pitched tracks with no digital correction artifacts whatsoever. Then practice it and etch it into your head how it should sound and how every muscle in your body has to be to sing it perfectly every time.

Thanks man. Sounds interesting, though I'm not sure it will help 100%. For example, one of my problems are short notes - it takes time (a fraction of a second) for me to hit the key, so short notes are usually over before I understand that there's something wrong

Notes that are very long are also a problem, start is ok, but then my voice trembles a bit and slides out of key. But this is something that I think can be fixed by the technique you've proposed.

One of the best tips i can give you is to record yourself and play it back. I never sang off key , but i didnt know how to bring it up from the gut, until I started recording.

I picked up a Boss digital recording rig. I would lay down the chords to a song with a drum machine beat. Go back put in the bass line. They i would start laying down vocal tracks. I found my voice, I learned to use a mic and what echo delay I liked on the vocals.

So now i can sing lead. I am putting alot of effort into singing harmony now. I think you can teach yourself to sing , but you do have to be organized at it and put the time in. I find kereoke as being worthwhile too.

Thanks man. Sounds interesting, though I'm not sure it will help 100%. For example, one of my problems are short notes - it takes time (a fraction of a second) for me to hit the key, so short notes are usually over before I understand that there's something wrong Notes that are very long are also a problem, start is ok, but then my voice trembles a bit and slides out of key. But this is something that I think can be fixed by the technique you've proposed.

Run through scales, intervals, and appregios, grab a chromatic tuner and try to sing in tune into it. It takes time and a lot of work but you can improve all of these things you've mentioned in my experience.

Such as your problem with short notes. Developing muscle memory, ear, and co-ordination between ear and voice you can fix this problem. Also, hear the note in your head before you try to sing it, it can be hard to think ahead, but it really does help your accuracy.

+1 I was going to suggest a lot of this. In addition, having proper support under the note helps this too.

It really is about training and muscle memory. Repetition will eventually let your auto pilot take over and hit the proper notes, just like your fingers "know" what chords to fret or what notes to play on a riff.

For example, I joined a band last January. I hadn't done much singing in the couple of months prior to trying out. (My band had broken up in September.) Initially, I relied on my own internal brain memory and sort of "played the songs back in my head" for a reference. Eventually, we started doing more songs that required half-step-down tuning, so the guitarists wanted to do all the songs that way, also allowing for me to sing more higher tunes (GAWD knows why, ). At first I balked, but then I realized that my brain knows most of these melodies, I can transpose them to whatever key I need to.

The voice is truly a remarkable instrument if you develop it.

BTW, I've never had any luck singing into a chromatic tuner.

Well if you've got some software on your computer try plugging in a mic and running it into a tuner plugin or something similar. Amplitube2 has a tuner in it, if you ran your vox signal thru that you could probably see your tune, or probably even AutoTune or melodyne, with the correction either off or the playback muted.

Thanks guys, this really gives the insight on how these things work and what can be achieved.

But did any of you actually see this happen to anybody in practice? Any real improvements? Like from to :phil: ?

Thanks guys, this really gives the insight on how these things work and what can be achieved. But did any of you actually see this happen to anybody in practice? Any real improvements? Like from to :phil: ?

I feel like I've seen it in myself, if I am allowed to say so. I wasn't very good when I first started. I feel like at various times in my singing career I've been excellent, and at other times, I've been marginal at best. It really ebbs and flows with how much time and effort I'm putting into it and whether or not I'm trying to do something that I am truly capable of and actually am going to sound pleasant doing to begin with. (Not singing too high or too low for my range, to put a finger on it.)

I think all singers started out as off key singers and improved later on. However, I'll allow for the possibility of perfect pitch from birth and go with almost all. Keep practicing. You get better at the things you practice.

Two points: Pitch correction is used live by almost everyone, yes, but pitch correction is relative, not absolute--i.e., a little bit of pitch correction can be applied as a safety net, and one wouldn't necessarily even know it. This is nothing like the so-called "Cher effect," a robotic voice created by excesssive pitch correction and used by a lot of contemporary artists as an effect. A bit of correction will smooth out rough edges without attracting attention. Nuthin' wrong with that! As someone with a few rough edges, I would know.

T.C.Helicon has a VoiceTone Correct pedal that manages pitch correction very well in a live setting--for only $250 or so.

Second, I have the identical problem of singing much better alone with my acoustic than I do with the band. Some of it is simply monitoring. Invest if you can in your own monitor and turn up the volume!. This may make a huge difference.

However, in my case I found that monitoring didn't solve the problem, though it did help a lot. I now think that experience and practice is the key: Hearing your voice coming through a PA is like hearing yourself on a recording. The sound you hear from outside overpowers the resonant sound in your head. Hence, you will always sound better (subjectively) when you are unamplified. Effects like reverb can help, but finally it takes some time to get used to hearing yourself "out there." But it does happen after a while.

Go figure, I sing worse by myself than with the band.

I really need a TON of volume, I really think it's more of the physical feeling I'm basing my pitch from. I play in a metal band with two guitarist, both who play cranked to 10...once I get that feeling in my chest from the guitars/bass, I can feel out where I'm supposed to be....

Didn't really realize that until I was at the studio a while ago. I needed my headphones craaaaaanked with both my vocal and the band, just to get where I needed to be pitch wise.

My ears won't last as long....but it certainly helps in {censored}ty monitoring conditions, where I always know the guitars are cranked!

Oh yeah, I used to be a HORRIBLE singer. Absolute trash....with some work, I could possibly find something that would give a good example, but take my word for it.

It's taken a long time to get where I feel comfortable in most situations and I really learn more and more as time goes on. Pitch was the biggest thing I had to work on...the biggest help I had, was learning to settle down and relax.

Alot of singers don't realise that you have to sing actual notes when you sing. If the notes you're singing don't match what's being played it'll sound wrong. The reason you sound better when you're playing acoustic is because you're matching your voice to the notes you're playing.

If your playing an A chord you need to sing in A or a harmonising note/key or it'll sound all over the place.

I didn't learn this untill my band was recording. Luck favoured us with a sound engineer who actually gave a {censored} and he let us in on this and taught us how to sing properly.

As I've said 1003 times: What's wrong with practice??? :confused:

I remember the times when one would expect to work hard hours a day for years to be good at something. Nowadays everyone demand to be on a stage instant if you wish. Just look cool and let the pitch correction, playback, soundman or whatever do the rest.... It's like it is a human rights to be greeted as a entertainer if your hairstyle is great....

To the origninal poster: make a playlist with 20 of your favorite songs and get the lyrics. Sing a long to the songs as many times a day as are able, don't mind that it sounds weird at first. When you feel like you nail a song, you'd might replace with another.

And: Don't expect yourself to be a great singer after just some month, that would be an insult to all the great singers that have been practicing thousands of hours.

gizmos as a crutch is a disease,people who can sing sound great without any of that crap ,and it is crap my friend

Not a thing. In fact, there is a hypothesis that everyone has a certain number of bad notes they have to sing before they start consistently singing good ones. People we think of as good singers from an early age just got it out of the way sooner than others.

On the other hand, some people really are tone deaf...

Xactly as I would say it! There is also a guy who studied the life, background and genes of great violin virtouses and found 1 common thing about their success: They all had practiced 10 000 hours on their instrument. This is 100% inline with my theories on talent vs practice. I also say that skill = focus * practice. By that I mean those who are seen as talents are more focused, or dedicated. For a person to be real great he/she need to have all the drive to sit thousands of hours with the instrument, and by that time you have fine tuned your training skills and your focus is much better. You've also learned how to be more effective and practice what needs practice. By that time it don't matter if you were seen as a talent after 100 hours or you thought you were impossible to improve. Time and patience have done it for you.

Those are very few. I have never heard about or met any of that kind. I have heard people claiming they are, but those have not to my knowledge tried to solve their problem. I have also talked to many vocal teacher and none of them had a case of real tone deaf pupils. They all learned in the end. You just can't go around and claiming to be tone deaf if you sing out of key. The only people being diagnosed true tone deaf in a medical sense are those who speak in a complete monotone voice without altering pitch. Those are very rare. As in one in a million.