So I'm determined to learn to growl and play altissimo before 2nd semester...

I read that learning to whistle and sing at the same time is a good way to start growling properly (I can fake it), so I'm doing that. Sounds funny, it makes me laugh while I do it, but it seems that learning to do that will help me overcome the hard part, which is pushing enough air while singing/humming/screaming.

Altissimo won't be as easy for me, because I can only do the 8va harmonic so far. I was told by a reputable sax instructor that learning to control the harmonics will jump start the process of learning altissimo.

Anyway, I was just posting this to start some discussion. Who here can growl? Which of our sax players can get a 4 octave range? How did you learn, what made it easier?

I've never heard the sing and whistle technique. I'll have to try that.

For the overtones: you need more of the reed to vibrate in order to achieve them, so extend your emboucher when you're trying to hit the 5ths and higher. And it's easier on certain notes that others.

You also might want to set your horn up so that you can use the high F venting thing correctly.

The alternate high F seems to work fine, or maybe I'm not fully understanding you.

Hi Kuhnfyoozed,

1. Growling - The two most common methods of growling on sax are:

A. Sing while you play -NOT the same pitch you are playing, however, because that will cancel the note or cause very strange "beating" of the sound.

B. While you are blowing add the guttural sound you make when you are preparing to spit (sounds gross I know) - that adds "grit" to your sound. Experiment a bit and you'll get it. The whistling thing has no relationship to growling that I know of (and I can whistle and sing at the same time, BTW)

2. Altissimo - Whoever told you about the harmonic series is right on. Developing altissimo is usually a long term project - that is, CONTROLLED altissimo with a full sound. You've probably been told this, but for the benefit of those that may not know, you finger low Bb. Play low Bb. Now, keeping the same fingering (do NOT add the octave key) play the Bb an octave above. The next note you can get moving up (still with the low Bb fingering) is F. Then high Bb. Keep going - next is D, then high F (the highest "official" note on the traditional F# key-less saxophone). Then comes Ab - now you're in altissimo land, and Bb. You can go higher than that of course, but this should be your first major goal.

So how do you get those higher tones? It has to do primarily with the shape of your oral cavity, which you control mainly with the back of your tongue.

It's a "feel thing", so it's hard to describe. Another reason why a good private teacher is a wonderful thing!

It's NOT about biting. You may change lip pressure slightly, but that is a secondary aspect. Air support is critical. If you don't have a good, solid air stream, it's back to the basics until you do.

I hope this helps.

Oh, BTW - very critical - where are your top teeth and bottom lip in relationship to the mouthpiece? See red arrows.

If you’re too far up on the mouthpiece you can’t control your sound and it will get honky and harsh. Too little mouthpiece and the reed doesn’t vibrate fully and your sound is smaller, darker and it’s more difficult to hit higher harmonics. To find the best spot on your mouthpiece put a business card or other thin sheet of paper between the reed and mouthpiece, and note where it stops, which should roughly correspond to the red arrows in the diagram above. Still, the best place for you will be found by trial and error.

Note: All the above advice should be considered “defaults” or “best practices”. There are many excellent saxophonists who will tell you (rightly so) they have had good results using different techniques, etc. but this gives you a solid starting place.

Happy practicing!

Regards,

Jim

Jim, as both a sax and trumpet player, you're in a unique position to answer this question.

I execute a growl by flutter tonguing. I don't know if that's a "true" growl on trumpet, but it sounds good and people seem to like it. One of your sax growl methods sounds like how us brass players perform multiphonics (something that I still can't do well ). Is there another way to growl on trumpet?

Hey IndofunkCity,

On sax, I’ve always thought of flutter tonguing as its own technique, apart from the growl. Flutter tonguing is a cool effect, too, but has less “grit”, IMO.

The humming or clearing-your-throat type of growl can be done on trumpet as well as sax. Some think the clearing your throat method can be harmful, so take note. I prefer the humming/moaning technique. Maybe someone can chime in with examples? Homework for Sunburstbasser? J

I’ve never seriously attempted multiphonics on trumpet (oops!) but from what I understand you hum a specific pitch in relation ship to the note you’re playing, such as a third above or below. Is that how you’ve done it?

Oh, a thought – all of these techniques are different ways to “corrupt” the sound going into, and therefore out of the horn.

Well, we’re always learning – and practicing…

Jim

The throat-clearing thing is the only one I've ever really tried. Of the things I can do, growling isn't one of them.

The only thing resembling multi-phonics I've ever done is doing lip slurs between notes and holding the tension right at the break, which sorta makes two notes sound. I used to have an unintentional double-buzz that could produce two notes on certain partials, but have worked to eliminate that.

for a growl sound on the bone, I always just rolled an "r" while I played

I think thats flutter tonguing.

ah

so flutter tonguing isn't to have really fast distinct notes (like other kinds of tonguing)?

Yes. So how is that different than how you're describing growling?

Not as I've been taught; its more a mess of notes than anything distinct. Those fast distinct ones are "double" or "triple" tonguing, if I'm thinking of what you are.

danrothmusic said:

"so flutter tonguing isn't to have really fast distinct notes (like other kinds of tonguing)?"

Hi danrothmusic - Double or triple tounging is used for very fast distinct notes, as you most certainly know.. Now, if it's a LOT faster than double or triple tonguing, then yes, that could be flutter tongiung. A good audio example would help here...

Indofunkcity said:

:

"Originally Posted by Jim Clark

I’ve never seriously attempted multiphonics on trumpet (oops!) but from what I understand you hum a specific pitch in relation ship to the note you’re playing, such as a third above or below. Is that how you’ve done it?

Yes. So how is that different than how you're describing growling?"

Hey Indofunkcity,

When you are using the humming/moaning style, there is not as much volume in the hum/moan, just enough to add color to the sound. Also, by staying away from the pitch you are playing you avoid weird cancellation-type beating of the note.

In the multiphonic approach, I assume you are using distinct pitches in relationship to what you are playing, and singing those at a sufficient level (louder!) to speak more prominently through the bell of the horn. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, since I don't use multiphonics on trumpet)

Regards,

Jim

Oops - we were replying to danrothmusic at the same time!

JC

Thats OK; it makes me more convinced I know what I'm talking about.

So it sounds like what you're calling growling is what I hear and say "jeez, that guy's doing a really wimpy growl "

I prefer flutter tonguing because I can make it really loud and obnoxious. Through a plunger, it sounds so mean that grown men run away from me crying for their mommies

So it sounds like what you're calling growling is what I hear and say "jeez, that guy's doing a really wimpy growl " I prefer flutter tonguing because I can make it really loud and obnoxious. Through a plunger, it sounds so mean that grown men run away from me crying for their mommies

It ain't the flutter tonguing, its the facial hair...

I'd rather look scary than look like a '70s porn star!