Voltan

https://images.app.goo.gl/G6sGbbpdSTXZTF4y8 the wages of sin...

some valid points, but if i may, stating anything as “a reality” may or may not be valid... the inconvenient reality is not reality at all but purely conjecture. making broad statements that sound plausible on the surface are convincing until you stop and apply a bit of critical thought... you have critiqued everyone in a 50 mile radius on their musical abilities with an unbiased standard? as far as innately “knowing” about these elusive, magical beings that suddenly materialize, it actually takes about 9 months and out of the 360,000 births yesterday, im betting there are a couple musical prodigies that are as of yet undiscovered by you or me... one may be living next door to you now... so its more of a reality that yes, indeed! most miraculously they materialize without our permission or knowledge... imagine that! knowledge and skill are nothing compared to imagination.

for real world application, the difference in less sensitive cheapo LDC and the much quieter, more sensitive lewitt may have only been several notches less gain on the board for equal spls, but increased gain on the less sensitive mic to compensate meant increasing the already difficult noise floor. all the surrounding sound, art cars blasting edm through small club pa systems, the bass frequencies from the surrounding sound camps, general noise from 3500 humans, all that is within range reverbrates/vibrates through the gong, so less gain needed and increased distance from the source instrument allowed a more accurate reproduction of the dynamic and tonal range experienced sitting at the face of the gong. both mics worked but the quieter, more sensitive mic made life noticeably easier... im going to pick up two more lewitts...

in real world application, the system worked better than expected. some of the lower gong frequencies were reported being heard over a half mile away despite the din of numerous sound installations... (read edm blasting through pa’s.). accurate enough to reproduce the nuances and dynamic range of my proprietary hands on style. this time i was able to fill my space and actually be heard... i had several people tell me that some of the binary pulses seemed to block out the sounds around us... planes, the crowd, the thumping bass, all you could hear in a 50 foot radius was peacefully singing gongs! once again grateful for the ideas...

its taken longer than i had expected, but then... life... it seems the promoters are still interested despite my choice to not perform after my wifes accident, i am much better equipped this time thanks to everyones input here as well as dumb blind luck. a single lewitt lct 640 set 12” above centerline of three gongs, slightly forward of the intersection of those three centers focused downward at center of instrument. i plan on a second one, set at 90 degrees and figure eight pattern. as it stands now, everything except the upper frequencies of the two side gongs are being accurately reproduced and done so far above what is needed for art festival standards, easily within ranges to produce the results im seeking. i only need to fill a 30 foot diameter dome so im trying what i have. a single yorkville elite Ls720p, a choice of a pair of qsc k10s or k8s... im opting for the 8s due to short distances and the 8s wider dispersion angle. yamaha 12 channel is kind of overkill... at the onset, im happy... very clear, super clean through all frequencies and spls... seriously happy with the accuracy... until i pack up to leave for another week of tropical beaches and gongs, im going to try to add a bit of soarkle to the two side gongs or set up so i can easily reposition on the fly if/when i choose to switch primary instruments during the performances... ive redone the pyramid stand as wellmaking a lightweight, easily portable stand/gong transport which will allow impromptu performances anywhere in the venue... sorry to dig this up but unresolved and ongoing for me... and i feel i should share what ive learned with any of you that were still interested. i seriously appreciate all posts in this thread, thank you, v.

yes, maybe the way to record/transmit what im hearing?

keetee? thank you! huge info in that link. the d;screte 4060 core as a pair look intriguing...

here is a major problem... sound guys that are micing for what THEY want... in numerous poasts i point out that im using a technique that apoears to be something new... something no one has done, or at least capitalized upon... and it doesnt get picked up micing the gong like you do for everybody else because a 421 set a few feet back that works just fine for john bonhams gong style will NOT work for the completely different approach im using... a mic set at 5 feet away picks up what you hear at 5 feet away... and is in a completely different universe than what i hear at 1 foot away... and again not what is heard 20 feet away... i need to be able to work inside those distances/sound fields... a suggestion to mic as one would for a classical string quartet has opened up different mic arrangements... i want to bring selections from the up close world where i sit, to the folks in the back row... i understand from the start that these instruments produce vibrations that no sound system or mic is capable of capturing or reproducing, but i would like to get as close as i can... i would also like to thank each of you for your input... im not a sound tech, my perspective is from the instrument... im just getting started on this little adventure and youve all helped me understand my challenges so much more clearly. a contact made while playing the last festival has offered, among several things, full use of a symphonic recording studio in miami... it may be time to get busy?

no pressure... im on stage in less than three weeks with this...

lots of good info and everyone has given me much to consider... like making sound is a lot different mind set than capturing sound... i got a good deal on a lewitt 540 ldc and a shure sm89 shotgun that has critical (for my purposes) freq response... now to find s decent pair of ldc’s or three, and i at least have an idea of why im beginning where i am... onward through the fog... thank you. v.

common sense is deleting threads? theres a ton of info in those old threads, n00b...

thank you... indeed as most people use gongs for a “crash” effect, i play them a bit differently... now im wondering if its the stereo capsule picking up the low freqs or if its the mic proximity allowing the sound to blossom? time to set up again and check...

thank you for your responses... each of you helped and i appreciate your time and ideas.

B. yes, im contacting two studios in tallahassee, which is only an hour away... one owes me a favor or two for some tracks... i also understand that its their mics in a room thats familiar to them... part of my dilemma is that im looking for versatility, as in the multi patterned 414 and others, and the rabbit hole gets increasingly deep... sometimes the simplest, most obvious, is the hardest to see... i know i should just let it be, but i cant shake the thought of hearing “ hey man, i couldnt really pull up those highs so i just bumped up the bass and panned back and forth with a bunch of echo and some chorus... it sounded sick, bro...”.

technically, i guess they are drums... by classical definition... and if i had a box full of mics i would do just that... the graph on the crown pzm's is about as flat as one could expect... but the performance doesnt always match the graph... which is why im here asking silly questions,,, and by the way, 20 to 20K doesnt come close to capturing what frequencies these babies put out, plus putting anything on the gongs would change the way they resonate...... ( this is a major reason why i prefer small intimate groups as opposed to the large groups im being asked to play )

ive tried everything i have, which isnt much... ive a couple samson cl3's which might work to spot mic bowls, a couple crown pzm-6d's and an old mxl ldc thats way too bright and harsh... everything else is vocal live performance or drum kit mics which dont have the frequency response or sensitivity i need for this..

how/what do you set for a string quartet? yes, understand that money isnt the cure, but improperly mic’ed is where i am without spending some... if i can mic this up properly for less money, im good with that.

this isnt my territory... i can tell you the difference between the sound of an accute or oblique arc with the same mallet on my gongs but choosing the mic to capture the subtle differences is out of my comfort zone. what im doing is a little different than what you may have been exposed to in the past... that said, my needs are a bit more exacting and defined... some are happy with a kick drum mic or hand held vocal mic for a gong and if it gets them where they are headed, im all for it! my dilemma is working with quiet instruments in an environment with a naturally high sound “floor”. extracting the target sound and placing that specific vibrating air bubble in the chest of the people in the back of the auditorium...

please pardon my sm57 remark, it was not directed at you, timing is everything... they work great on percussion, theyre a staole in my drum mic kits, but the gongs produce frequencies that the 57’s just cant reproduce, or maybe they would?... on both ends of the auditory spectrum ... id love to hear the feb contrasts in mic sounds!

thank you! this is the general direction... im wondering with the demand for such a wide dynamic range and frequencies, if it might be best to approach them like a string quartet? large d condensers set in a field with spot/area focused small d condensers for the elusive highs. part of my issue here is i have a rudimentary hands on experience with live sound gear from a working musicians perspective. my home recording mics, an old mxl ldc and samson cl3 sdc’s probably are a bit short... i cant go to a locker and pick up a md421 to try... (although i doubt id be happy with a 30 to 17k freq response to begin with even though im a senn fan...). everything ive read seems to lead in circles... part of which may stem from people not understanding because they “already know” what they think im doing and it just isnt so... my footprint is about 13 to 14 feet wide by about 7 to 8 feet deep, 82 inches from top of tallest gong stand to the bowls resting on the floor. mics set to the center of the outer gongs would place them at about 7 feet apart. a two day immersion in recent micing ideas leads me to a basic understanding that a low self noise mic is best for picking out the gentle nuances and subtleties, im unsure as to how important multiple pattern mics are but versatility is usually a plus. se electronics 4400a, rode nt2, or nt2000, akg c414xls st, lewitt lct 640 ts... im leaning towards the lewitt for lowest self noise and pattern control ability. possibly mxl v67n for sdc’s? (having omni and cardioid elements). looking at the offerings of mics at the venues and festivals made me understand that if im going to do this properly, ive got to supply my own mics... half a dozen sm57’s probably arent going to do it...

and no, simply because of the name? shotgun mic? or the ability to pick up high frequencies at a distance? i had a couple sound techs try to mic up a 48 inch chau with a pencil condenser about half an inch off the face about 3 inches from the outer edge...

the shotgun im using has an a/b stereo mic in the body as well... the front element does a great job picking up the highs that get lost two feet away from the face of the instrument and the stereo capsule picks up the resonance of the field... it has sensitivity adjustments on the mics separately so i can dial in a good mix... works great for recording.... this isnt easy, which is why im pretty quick to dismiss thoughts to the contrary... forget everything you think you know about gongs and playing them... it seriously isnt like that...

right, i understand that... i get that nobody needs to mic the bashing clanger of a gong smasher... that is not playing a gong. most peoples idea of a gong is two hundred seventy five measures of rest, a whole note at the end, pack it up and go home... i get it... but thats not me... i carry a 52 inch gong around not because it can be louder than a jet engine, but because a gong that large allows me to play with the nuances of sound that are so gentle and quiet, yet still move enough air to be heard... softly... the magic is in the ethereal decay of resonance... the timbre of the higher frequencies, the subtle differences in sound produced by different weights in mallets... the dynamics run from whisper to literally jet engine spls... frequencies go from below to above human hearing... i looked at the c414s and didnt like self noise levels compared to the lewitt 640 ts... actually i liked all the specs on the lewitt best so far, but specs dont tell all the story... i have a couple miktek sdc pencil type mics for spot micing the bowls, maybe a couple more or try the rode sdc? i need the punch of the lows, but what ive found live is that there isnt enough high freq to give the definition im seeking... what im doing with gongs is different... what i need reflects that...

i’ll remember to keep the questions simple in here... thanks...

actually the sound of the small diaphragm condensers on the q8 suck for gong recording... theyre pretty good for voice or acoustic guitar but they have no definition from any distance and are quickly over saturated at close range. i use the stereo shotgun mic that zoom has available... it is a stereo shotgun mic... why would you not choose a stereo shotgun? why not a ribbon? the active ribbons have super low self noise and have plenty of air... im not sure you have a good understanding of what im trying to capture here... i need full definition and complete dynamic range... the c214’s look good on the frequency specs... how do they compare on self noise to something like the se voodoo II? active ribbon... im micing 5 gongs, 13 singing bowls, 3 spinning kyeezees, various elephant claw bells, several flutes and a hang...