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SteinbergerHack

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Posts posted by SteinbergerHack

  1. A few more thoughts:

    Used, you might be able to find a USA Guild JF30-12 (there are also Asian made JF30's from the discontinued GAD line so do your homework) or a Taylor 355 in your price range but all the usual caveats that apply to a used guitar apply doubly to a 12-string.

     

    Good options to try and find!

     

    Second, have you tried a 6-string in Nashville tuning? Not a 12-string but some of the properties of one, especially if you play along with another guitarist.

    Finally, does it need to be acoustic? You could find a 12-string electric, say a Danelectro, in your price range fairly easily.

     

    Not an option. The point is that the books I get handed often call for 12 string acoustic. I have never seen a theater book call for nashville tuning or electric 12....yet. That said, I jist finished tech rehearsal for a show where I am playing electric solidbody, steel string, nylon string, mandolin, and ukelele. It calls for 12, too, but I'm covering with a 6. Typical theater book.

  2. does anyone have any insights?

     

    edit: oh and you still have the possibility to get a used one from reverb or ebay, reverb has currently 78 12 string ovations there, maybe you can find the right one there

     

    Honestly, I'm not interested in buying a guitar that I can't play first. I tend to buy good instruments and keep them forever, so I'm just not into trading around or getting something I might have to aell off or return.

     

    That said, I am willing to burn a day and drive a reasonable distance to check out a likely candidate.

  3. I absolutely love my Taylor 150e... I wanted a good sounding 12 string that wouldn’t break the bank and that was relatively comfortable for me to play, even with my small hands. I have been very satisfied with my decision, but since you’ve already tried one, my choice apparently isn’t the right one for you....

     

    I found the Taylor to be the best of the high-volume ($500-800) models I've played, but then I made the mistake of playing the $3k Gibson. I think that the difference between them is really significant in volume, sound, and playability, so I am looking for the middle ground.

    • Like 1
  4. you would play your 12 string mostly plugged in an pa and the accoustic sound itself is not that important?

     

    Generally speaking, yes. I run everything through a console with an output for my monitor and an output for tech.

     

    why not have a look at an ovation 12 string?

    they are great quality, lots of artists have proven their workhorseness and there higher end modells are just above $1000[/Quote]

     

    I actually use one for my steel 6-string pit work, and it works really well for this application. I've had it more than 30 years, I've figured out how to make it sound really good through a sound system, and it's just about worn out. Trouble is, we play seated, and the only Ovation body style that works for me seated is super-shallow. They no longer make a super-shallow 12 (except the double-neck, which would be a problem for quick changes between instruments).

     

    Simply put, if I could get an exact duplicate of my 1980s Elite in a 12, I would have already done it. Ovation has pushed the Elite series down-scale, though, cheapened the electronics and woodwork, and they just don't sound or play the same as the original ones do....and they don't make a 12 version anyway.

  5. You're asking for the best and hoping to get it with something less.

     

    Well....yes, of course. More to the point, I am trying to determine the minimum price point to get to what I need/want, and get a sense of what to look for to achieve that balance. For my main electrics and amps I have spent the big $$$ to get precisely what I want; this is more of a second-tier support instrument for me, so it's hard to justify spending $3K+ for something that will only get 5-7 minutes of playing per night.

     

    Tuning stability with a 12 string acoustic relies on a sturdy build. That pretty much rules out all brands except Guild with its double torsion rod and laminated, coined back for strength. If you look around you might find a decent used one. The F412 Maple I had for many years was very strong (and heavy) and would definitely cut through a mix. I've played many others and owned some of them.

     

    Good input - thanks.

     

     

    I've been doing something similar and it just doesn't do the trick. I need the real thing.

  6. I happen to like 12 strings a lot and currently own three. They are very different guitars - I string them differently, tune them differently and play them differently. l'm not currently in the 12 string market and have kind of lost touch with what is currently available, but my recommendations were always Taylor (whatever would be the current equivalent of their classic 355) and most of the Guilds, unless you need a special tuning and/or sound.

     

    The 150 is supposed to be a pretty good bang for the buck guitar but I think most everything below a grand is pretty limited. The iconic LKSM (out of production) is, or I guess, was a killer guitar if you want Leo's low tunings. I'm a big fan of ladder braced 12's for blues - Fraulini makes some great models.

     

    How about a little more information about the tuning(s) and playing style you want.

     

    The majority of my use for a 12-string is musical theater work, so there's generally no need for odd tunings. Playing style varies from week to week, depending on the show I'm playing...and some shows change genre from song to song. What I need in any instrument is a solid workhorse that is stable, reliable, holds tune, plays well, and sounds decent. It doesn't need to be the 100% perfect-sounding recording instrument; it just needs to sound right - intonation issues and unusual sounds aren't welcome in a pit gig.

     

    Are Guilds the same guitars that they used to be? Does anyone know if the change in ownership has had an impact for better or worse?

  7. Guild and Taylor are the gold standard for 12-strings. Used is iffy so let's talk new. A Taylor 150E will run you $899: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...back-and-sides. For $1199' date=' there's the Guild F-1512E, part of their Asian made "Westerly" line: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...-1512e-natural. No idea how they compare to USA Guilds in terms of long term build quality though.

     

    I played a Taylor 150e and found it to be really, well.....uninspiring. Same with the lower end Guild (2512) at a big-box store, but I've played some really nice Guilds in the past. Need to find a 1512 to play......

  8. Short version: I need a 12 string and wpuld prefer not to pay the full $3K for a Gibson Songwriter. What do you guys recommend in the $1,000-$1,500 range?

     

    Not a fan of the $500-800 ones I've seen at GC, etc.

     

    Long version - I do a lot of theater pit gigs, and it seems that nearly every book calls for a 12 on one or two songs. I've been getting by without, but I really should get something the sounds decent, holds tune well, has a decent pickup, etc. Needs to be good enough for serious paying gigs, but it won't get used enough to merit paying an arm and a leg, though.....

  9.  

    Did the club provide the stools? ;)

     

    :lol:

     

    Honestly, I have a couple of my own that I carry for playing acoustic gigs, as do all of the upright bass players I know. It seems kind of silly, but too many times you get a crappy folding chair or a tall chair with arms (i.e., unusable for a guitarist/bassist).

     

    To be fair, if a club owner asked the band manager to "bring drinks and beer", we would generally not have a clue as to how much of what to bring, brands desired, glassware, etc. They are expert at their part of the overall product, and we are the experts at our portion; as much as it may annoy us when they get it wrong, we have to remember that most of them know as much about mixing a live band as they know about calculating a lunar approach trajectory.

  10. Well, then I am in total agreement...not worth the effort. If the house won't even put up a back line somehow...it seems pointless. I was laboring under the misconception that you could just show up with your axe and a cable, plug in, play and pack it in your case, have a drink, and leave.

     

    Looks like they are more geared to spoken word than music.

     

    Generally a couple of guys on stools with steel-strings.

     

    My band has three complete PAs depending on location and configuration [5 piece up to 9 piece] that range from an 8 channel 2000w/side rig for outdoor, a 12ch 1000w/side rig for indoor and a 16 ch rig [mine] for the full horn section indoor shows, plus either hot spot monitors or floor monitors, and we can mix and match as needed. Most of the time our PA rigs are vastly superior to the PAs in the places we play, but many club owners are offended when we ask to shove their stuff back and put up our PA/monitors...until they hear the difference. Sad state of affairs...

     

    Truth. I have a pretty basic setup with 7 powered main/monitor cabs and two subs (Yamaha DXR/DXS), with a rack X32 console. Better than the crappy clubs, not as good as one with a "real" system. I don't haul it around without some $$$ being on the table - though I often don't charge my own bands anything above an even cut.

  11. Most bar owners don't typically care about the quality of the music, just what they ring up over the night.

     

    Well, this certainly makes sense, as we all know that in the end we are beer salesmen, not musicians. That said, a club that gets a reputation of having better performers will likely end up drawing better crowds over time, and people will definitely stay longer and drink more if the environment is enjoyable.

     

    But, to be fair, would it hurt you to go back up a buddy on a couple of songs [assuming the backline is good and the drinks reasonable]? I do on occasion, but I also try to plug my bands when I do. Every now and then it pays off with a decent paying gig.

     

    I might drop in once just to keep the relationship up, but I honestly see no potential benefit for any of my regular gigs. These places aren't going to hire a 7- or 8-piece horn band, nor do they build any influence over my steady diet of theater pit gigs. FWIW, I stopped in to look at one of these two places the other night, and there was NO backline provided, two mics on straight stands, one crappy monitor and one small "$h1t on a stick" FOH speaker. :freak:

     

    A few years ago, they were putting actual bands in the same space, but the bands had to bring their own gear. Heck, the rehearsal sound rig I have in my barn would be a massive upgrade.......

  12. I have seen a trend locally over the past couple of years that has me concerned. Several of the local bars have abandoned booking bands, and are holding "open mic nights" instead. These bars aren't my normal clientele anyway (they never did pay enough for my groups), but it got my attention when a couple of friends asked if I would come join them and play a few tunes. These guys don't play actual paying gigs, so they just see it as a fun time with buddies drinking beer and don't give it a second thought.

     

    From my perspective, it is a matter of the bar trying to get free "entertainment", knowing that the 10 guys who all show up to hack their way through a half-dozen covers each bring a couple of friends and buy a few beers. I get it, and can see why the bar would do it as long as they can put people on stools with glasses in hand.

     

    That said, it rubbed me wrong when a singer friend asked if I would come sit in "to help raise the bar on stage and put on a good show". From my perspective, why would I go "put on a good show" for nothing when I am already booked with paying gigs for the next 8-9 months? If the owner wants to "raise the bar", I am perfectly willing to accept a paying gig there - and I'd host the first set as open mic if they would like me to....but not as a freebie. I'm pretty certain that my buddy honestly just wants to have me help him sound better on his stuff, and probably never considered it from my perspective, but I still feel that we (musicians) shouldn't be supporting a "give-away" to a bar that isn't booking acts and paying them.

     

    If the bar did open mic nights mid-week, then booked bands on the weekend, I would probably feel differently....but they don't.

     

    Am I being unreasonable in viewing it this way? Any thoughts on how to deal with this sort of request without coming across like a jerk?

  13. Please tell me a bit more about this devil...

     

    I didn't mean to imply that you were unaware of that bit of gymnastics. Just trying to commiserate a bit with you. smiley-happy

     

    I know of no other way to de- devil it. That's what orchestra players ( violinists anyway), the world over do when presented with awkward key signatures. We think of it enharmonically.

     

    But we don't often have to make it up over the changes and then grab a few notes that the composer/arranger wants, and then go back to play something over the changes, etc.

     

    Anyway, it's the kind of thing I'd have put together in a way that works for me by Friday night and the key signature by then wouldn't matter much anymore.

     

    Good Luck. :)

     

    Absolutely. I spent my junior high and high school years as a violinist, and yeah, that's the way I try to think of it. Trouble for me is just sight-reading it. Once I've played through it a few times and worked out the fingerings, its no worse to play than anything else.

     

    It was really amusing, though, to hear about a third of the pit come upon that key change and hit the wall. A few sour notes and several people all muttering impolite things at the exact some moment.......:lol: As I understand it, the only people who like Cb are harpists.

  14. Has Pino Palladino been mentioned yet?

     

    Also, you may not have heard of him before, but check out Jerry Seay. Band is Mother's Finest, and he created some of the essential funk-rock bass sounds back in the 70s. I was lucky enough to hear the band live in about '78 or '79, and his playing still sticks with me.

     

    [video=youtube;ndipC4d8F0w]

     

    [video=youtube;aC7_LAklaHo]

  15. [shameless cross-post from another forum section....]

     

    I showed up last night for rehearsal for a show that starts its run this Friday, and I find this in the book.......note the key signature.....

     

    1457642762_SAScoreScan.thumb.jpg.25d251fa5a7232cd70176b69bc47c35a.jpg

    Ya know, I would be fine with it if it were transcribed in B....but Cb?

     

    angry02:philpalm:sm-explode

  16.  

    Your guitars don’t even have heads! :mad:

     

    :cool05:

    :lol:

     

    OK, OK.....

     

    However, the last two weekends I've used my Les Paul as primary instead of the 'Berger. IMO, this is what a nice book-matched maple top should look like. YMMV.

     

    [img2=JSON]{"alt":"Image result for Steinbergerhack Les Paul R0 VOS","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"505","width":"296","src":"http:\/\/www.historiclespauls.com\/upload\/MauneyM_1149471279_PICT0042d.JPG"}[/img2]

     

    :thu:

    • Like 1
  17. Update:

     

    We ended up renting a set of 10 of the ATs, then supplementing with a Sennheiser G3 and a newer Shure operating in totally different bands.

     

    The headsets have been a real pain. Turns out that what we rented came with a bunch of very cheap Countryman knock-offs ($39 on the internet), so I ended up having to scrounge at the local GCs and other shops to find as many Galaxy sets as I could to get something decent going (no time for ordering). Not fun, but we finally have them working properly.

     

    One thing to remind anyone looking at this thread for reference: Turn off the 2.4GHz band on any router you are using for your console or other sound gear. It's easy to do - just use the 5G band for WiFi, and you will be glad you did.

     

    We were 7 seats from sold out last night, and sold out tonight. Things could be a lot worse.

  18. Final update:

     

    I ended up getting (7) DXR12s and (2) DXS15s. Three of the 12s go across the front (L/C/R) with the L/R subs, then 4 12s act as wedge monitor for stage and pit.

     

    I went with the rack X32, and it functions well for the $$$.

     

    Observations:

     

    The DXRs are very convenient, light, flyable, and easy to configure. They don't sound as good as my old Club series did, though. They seem to have WAY too much low mid/high bass, and the DSP setting don't help. I end up turning it off and having to EQ the snot out of them in the console. If they already have a DSP in the box, why on earth do they not have a setting for "FLAT RESPONSE"?

     

    The PC-based remote X32 app is not nice. Not user-friendly and absolutely will not let you make a small tweak to a level. It has a default deadband that is WAY too wide, IMO, which means that you can't just sneak in a minor adjustment without it going noticed.

     

    The third-party 'Droid app is much better, but missing a few functions. As a result, I end up having to use both, which is a pain.

     

    Summary - get an iPad if you want to use the X32, and be prepared to use a lot of EQ effort on the DXRs....but that still beats hauling the amp rack for passives.

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