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possopo

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  1. I'm not trying to analyze the song for the sake of analyzing the song (or getting a headache). the idea is to learn certain patterns that I would eventually memorize and recognize when I hear them. and the idea behind this idea is to improve my compositional skills. so far so good, it seems to work. and thanks for the help, it's extremely valuable !
  2. can I say the song modulates back and forth between A and Am (or C) and Bb is a common modulation in Cm from the key of C (something very often used by the Beatles) ?
  3. hi everyone, I'm not sure I'm in the right section here (tell me if you think the Lesson Loft is a better place) but I'm desperately trying to analyze Black Hole Sun (and it's even harder when I'm trying to play it on my instrument as the song is slightly detuned on record) : verse : A / C / G / F#m / F / E / A / G / Bb chorus : F / E / A / G / Bb / F / E / Bb / E here is what I think (it's really muddled due to the fact that I have no idea what the key is) : the song starts in A which I see as a borrowed chord from A major in a song that starts in A dorian (or Em). the next three chords fit A dorian well. the voice leading from F#m to E is quite obvious but this Major chords / major chords / minor chord with bass going down a half step each time confuses me. E seems to be the dominant of A. the G was already there but does it go ? no idea. as for the Bb, hmm... bII ? if someone could help me clear this up, I would be very thankful sidenote : I first posted this in the songwriting worshop because 1001gear told me it was a better a place to find answers but as someone there told me the opposite, I'm back here. I used to post here a few years ago with extremely elaborate answers by JonR but he seems not be reading this forum anymore.
  4. hi everyone, I'm not sure I'm in the right section here (tell me if you think the Lesson Loft is a better place) but I'm desperately trying to analyze Black Hole Sun (and it's even harder when I'm trying to play it on my instrument as the song is slightly detuned on record) : verse : A / C / G / F#m / F / E / A / G / Bb chorus : F / E / A / G / Bb / F / E / Bb / E here is what I think (it's really muddled due to the fact that I have no idea what the key is) : the song starts in A which I see as a borrowed chord from A major in a song that starts in A dorian (or Em). the next three chords fit A dorian well. the voice leading from F#m to E is quite obvious but this Major chords / major chords / minor chord with bass going down a half step each time confuses me. E seems to be the dominant of A. the G was already there but does it go ? no idea. as for the Bb, hmm... bII ? if someone could help me clear this up, I would be very thankful
  5. very nice, thanks a lot ! just a thought, understanding bits of harmony makes me listen to songs in a different way and in this case, when I think of F#dim as a passing chord between D and E (D#dim) with the odd B7 to lure the listener for one second, the listening is different from when I think of it as a ii V I. I didn't think of this I vi ii V split in half. very interesting again !
  6. I'm trying to find a good book that studies harmony in a historical context. do you know any and do you know which section I should post my question in ? a book that answers why we finally decided to use 3rd and not only 5ths (and 4ths), how we came about with scales, the invention of the harmonic minor and then the melodic minor scale, first steps in dissonance, alterations. something that goes all the way to the Middle Ages (or why not ancient greek music) to atonality and serialism. if the book talks about rhythms, instruments, not only art music but also folk (and then blues and rock...) and the relationship between these genres and art music..., microtonality, non-western music, that would be a plus. basically, I'm trying to find a book similar to Alex Ross' The Rest Is Noise but which focus is everything, not only XXth century art music. and maybe something that also goes a little deeper in harmony theory than Alex Ross (who barely scratches the surface of it).
  7. I know little about harmony but I'm not sure I'm missing vital concepts and info. if I do, please tell me, that would be so helpful. I know what a key is, I know quite a few methods to modulate (modal interchange, circle of fourths and fifths...), I know some chord substitutions, I know other tricks (wrong word, yes) such as the andalusian cadence, the neopolitan sixth... I know the use of degrees (sub-dominant, dominant, tonic...), I know relative minors and majors, I understand the basics of alteration, I know secondary dominants... I started playing the guitar a long time ago and my main focus were riffs as I was mostly into Metal. so it took me a while before I got interested in chords and even longer before I started to learn even the most basic parts of harmony. I guess one of my problems is I'm not thinking enough in terms of voice leadings and that's probably because I keep thinking chords all the time, not voices (although in some songs, voice leadings are extremely obvious). I love Jazz but only started trying to understand how Jazz works a very short while ago (and there's a lot to learn) and my background in Classical is very limited and I can't read music. I'm currently working on my ears a lot (intervals, scales, chords...) because I'd like to be able to transcribe songs and my tools for that would be both my ears and some theoretical knowledge. then I'd like to be able write songs and play on instruments something I have in my head (that is still pretty challenging, not the melody but the chords again). so I read about basic harmony and started to transcribe. I get stuck, I find the chords on the Internet and form there, I'm trying to analyse the song harmonically. I also need to know what scale to play on each chord (mode, arpeggio...). and when I'm stuck on harmony, I google around and when I find nothing -or when I can't connect what I found with the specific song I'm working on), I ask (and my first questions on this forum were extremely basic).
  8. last time I asked for harmonic analysis here, Jon R and a few others definitely helped me by giving me super useful answers. what I'm doing is read about harmony, (bits everywhere on the Internet, not a book), then try to analyse songs. when I'm stuck and I can't find answers on the Internet, I'm looking for help. in this case, I tried to google how to use diminished chords in a Rock context, it helps a bit but not enough and I'm still stuck. my mistake was to mix keys and scales. I guess I'm still thinking in terms of scales too much as my first idea is to play solos on songs but it's clearer in my mind than what you think but no, I can't find the link between the D, the F#dim and the B7. I tried a few substitutions but no, it's still blurry. and then, I'd have to find what scale(s) to use over these chords. less difficult but still a little tricky for me. what I don't really get is why the gist of your message is just "you're bad, learn more". that's pointless.
  9. [this is a repost from the theory sub-forum but the guitar sub-forum seems to be getting much much more attention] hi everyone, I'm trying to understand how My Sweet Lord works and these diminished chords jurt my brain. here is the all sequence (but one tone lower than the original for the ease of transcriptions -I'm a guitarist) : Em / A / Em / A D / Bm / D / Bm D / F#dim / B7 Em / A / Em / A D / D7 / B7 / E / G#dim / C#7 / F#m / B and then goes back to the beginning with one tone higher Em, A, D, Bm seem to be in the key of D then F#dim has a C in it. does D major goes to mixolydian ? then B7 has yet another new note, D#... not easy but B7 goes to Em and that makes sense (sub-dominant) but why this choice of a D# that clashed with the former key of D ? D to D7 makes us go from D major to Dmixolydian again... B7 has this odd D# again but is a good sub-dominant and goes to E and then we have G#dim / C#7 / F#m / B which is the same sequence as D / F#dim / B7 / Em / A my main question is : where are these diminished chords coming from and why are they followed by these dom7th ? what is the theory behind that ? it looks a little like a weird ii-V-I but I may be totally wrong. thanks a lot for your help
  10. hi everyone, I'm trying to understand how My Sweet Lord works and these diminished chords jurt my brain. here is the all sequence (but one tone lower than the original for the ease of transcriptions -I'm a guitarist) : Em / A / Em / A D / Bm / D / Bm D / F#dim / B7 Em / A / Em / A D / D7 / B7 / E / G#dim / C#7 / F#m / B and then goes back to the beginning with one tone higher Em, A, D, Bm seem to be in the key of D then F#dim has a C in it. does D major goes to mixolydian ? then B7 has yet another new note, D#... not easy but B7 goes to Em and that makes sense (secondary dominant) but why this choice of a D# that clashed with the former key of D ? D to D7 makes us go from D major to Dmixolydian again... B7 has this odd D# again but is a good secondary dominant and goes to E and then we have G#dim / C#7 / F#m / B which is the same sequence as D / F#dim / B7 / Em / A my main question is : where are these diminished chords coming from and why are they followed by these dom7th ? what is the theory behind that ? it looks a little like a weird ii-V-I but I may be totally wrong. thanks a lot for your help
  11. hi everyone, I'm currently using GNU Solfege and earbeater to improve my hearing but both softwares only have exercises on single notes (intervals) or single chords (is is a minor, major, 7th, diminished...) ? does anyone know if there is a software where I could try to guess a chord sequence ? the software plays two chords and I have to find the interval between the two chords. like is it : I II, I III, I IV, I V, I VI, I VII ? (with chords from the major scale, minor scale or anything else)
  12. thank you all for the great pieces of advice ! I just found another way to transcribe a song which is even better than the bass. that is using major and minor triads on the upper strings of the guitar. instead of having just one note to find a chord, I'm now having the three basic notes of a chord. and it works so easy ! I have another question, but I think I'll strat a new thread for it:)
  13. jonfinn wrote : One thing that might help too. If there's no bass player, try to hear the highest note in the chord. Once you get that, you can make educated guesses to what the chord COULD be. You'll know when you hit it right. I'm doing that sometimes but quite often, it's even more misleading than trying to hear the bass note (because of chord inversions and such things) and to be honest, I think it's like cheating when I hear an open chord on a guitar, it's usually not too hard to get what chord it is. "oh, this F# on the higher E string, of course the guy is playing a D !" and this sorts of things. I think what I'd really be able to do is hear the texture of the chord, hear when it's a major or a minor (and then add the 7th). Lee Knight wrote : I think a big part of it is learning the sounds of all the diatonic chord series. Just absorb what a vi sound like. The ii, and the V. All of it, inside and out. got it ! I'm already trying to do that but I'm at stage one so I'm working on I-IV-V (either major or minor scale). but why start with vi and ii ? mosidiqqi wrote : "hear" a Major, minor or Dominant chord. it's probably my final goal but it is really difficult. at first, I was even thinking I had a problem because I always mistake major chords and minor chords. stupid things like : oh the sequence is descending, hmm, it must be minor because it's sad to go low. and I tried with several people (not musicians), they all have the same problem. if I play a major chords really slow, they think it's minor. if I play a minor chord quite hard (and it's even better if I smile when I'm doing it), they think it's major... they're basically mislead by the same tricks as I am:) to be honest, dom7th may be easier to hear (probably because I can hear the additional note, a note that is less obvious than root/third/fifth, it really stands out). JonR wrote : The more songs you transcribe, the more you will get to recognise the common kinds of changes. But it does take experience - and, while learning, a lot of cheating! I still often look songs up in published books when I can, if I'm not sure of what I'm hearing. yes, after many hours of transcribing, I can now transcribe very obvious blues songs in a minute (I IV V you know) and basic pop/rock songs in just a little bit more time. but I'm really not satisfied because since all these songs rely pretty much on the same chord sequences, I fell like I'm transcribing the same song over and over again. and when something changes, I'm lost. especially when a chord is not in the key. it's like I can't hear it's not in the key (probably because it's still a common trick already heard in so many songs so it still sounds natural to me)... and then I feel I'm still at level one of hearing...
  14. hi everyone, I'm currently putting a lot of effort in transcribing songs by ear. it's sometimes easy, sometimes a bit harder if not totally impossible when I can't hear the bass (or if the bass is not the root of the chord). I always rely on this bass note and I'd like to find another way to transcribe. are there any tips to find chords by ear only when the bass is misleading (not the root note) or when there is no bass at all ? thanks everyone for your help:)
  15. thanks, that was another very useful and enlightening post !!
  16. great thanks everyone, I understand (most of) all that ! so I understand that the melody anticipates EbM7 a lot (and by several notes). it's almost like nothing is actually happening in DM7. while soloing, is it something common to anticipate a lot on the next chord ? and if I'm doing it, do I have to keep a certain relationship with the chord I'm playing on (like some notes from the anticipated chord/mode that would fit the chord I'm playing on... or even all the notes) or it doesn't really matter that much. I understand that if no note fits the scale, it will simply clash a lot more but would it still sound good/interesting (I know, I know I have to try and that's what I'm trying ot but it's not that easy and I don't really have all the hardware needed for this) ? is it something jazz players tend to do a lot ? like in the melody of this tune, the notes of Eb lydian played fit perfectly Dm7 (that's why I was thinking it was D aeolian). what if they didn't fit Dm7 at all ?
  17. so you mean that the F is the last note before we go from DM7 to EbM so it leads straight to it ?
  18. hello:) here is Little Sunflower by Freddie Hubbard : Dm7 / / / / / / / x2 EM7 / / / DM7 / / / x2 I'm trying to understand where goes the melody in relation with the chords. from what I can hear : the first part of the melody is in D dorian (on Dm7). the second part starts in D aeolian (on Dm7), then goes to Eb lydian (EM7) and stops on F# on DM7. F# is the major 3rd of D so all is fine... ...but... the second part of the melody goes again but on the same DM7. A Bb A F... so it plays F (third minor of D) on DM7. and then goes onto Eb lydian and it falls back on its feet again. my question is why this 3rd minor on a M7 chord ? thanks everyone for you future help on this one:)
  19. There is never anything wrong with any song that has become successful enough to be issued commercially. A good song breaks no rules; if only because music theory is not about rules that need to be followed or broken anyway. I totally agree !!
  20. The question seems open as to why he decided that "Jewish tunes" would be hits. Presumably he'd noticed the success of Jewish songwriters - but probably also the appeal of that Eastern Mediterranean influence. yes, I guess this might has to do with the fashion of "orientalism" that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century. and by oriental, people were only thinking middle-eastern, south and east mediterranean, Caucasian (Georgian/Armenian) or eastern dark mysterious european (Romanian, Ukrainian, possibly also everything jewish Ashkenaz).
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