danbronson

You know, I rented a Presonus Firestudio for a week a little while ago, just to see if the grass really was greener on the other side of the fence (I was trying for RME but all they had was Presonus). The A/D and D/A sounded noticeably better than the Firepod but still not perfect. Conclusion (same conclusion I always come to with audio equipment): you get what you pay for. There are very, very few exceptions to that rule.

The point danbronson is making is that from the moment he got the PreSonus, he was listening to everything through the D/A converters. Every track he recorded was being played back through the D/A on the PreSonus. He heard the big difference when he bypassed the converters entirely, listening to the mic before any conversion happened. The fact that he didn't hear much difference when he ran it through the A/D and D/A multiple times doesn't negate the results. If the converters were (for argument's sake) rolling off everything below 100 Hz, then it doesn't matter how many times he ran the signal through the converters, he wouldn't hear anything below 100 Hz, because the converters themselves were affecting the sound. He only heard those frequencies once he took the converter OUT of the signal chain. I know it's not as simple as a filter at 100 Hz, but I think the point still stands -- the converters made an audible difference to the sound. Either way, let me know when you guys do the double-blind test. I'd be interested to hear the results. Glad someone gets this.

I owned a Firepod for a few years, so I'm intrigued. How did you conduct this test? How did you go about bypassing the converters? Did you go straight from the line out of the pre into the speakers? If so, how did you get it to both speakers? Was it all done through a mixer? If so, did you run the signal through the mixer for both tests? (I'm not doubting you here, just curious how you set it up.) You can bypass the converters by adjusting the mixer knob fully counterclockwise (from "playback (1-2)" to "inputs (1-8)"). It will be a different volume level (the converted signal was louder), so you will have to manually adjust the level by ear to try to meet the same average. Regardless of volume difference (louder often sounds 'better' to most people), the tonal balance is quite obviously different.

Dan, if you're ever in my area please let me know and we'll arrange a visit. The problem with your anecdotal evidence is that's all it is. The difference was likely due more to comb filtering and small movements than the difference between analog and digital. Indeed, you were right the first time when you compared multiple A/D/A generations. That at least is a more scientific way to test this. If your Firepod loses lows so badly you can tell on an electric guitar track, why couldn't you tell after five passes with a full mix having a bass track? This is why I'm sure your guitar comparison is flawed. I don't have your Presonus Firepod so I can't speak to its quality. Maybe you had something else inadvertently switched in, or out, when you switched from digital to analog. Or maybe the low latency was adding subtle distortion that would have gone away with a longer setting. But I have $100 that says if you come here and let me test you blind using my very old Delta 66, you will not be able to tell whether it's in the path or not. --Ethan The way I see it, 6 passes through the A/D and D/A are going to have basically the same negative effects as one pass through the D/A. Either way, the sound is getting destroyed by my crappy converters. But take the converters out of the chain altogether and sound quality improves significantly. If comb filtering is to blame, it's happening in the analog section of my converters. Small movements? Like my ears being in a different location from one test to the other? Please don't insult me, I'm not that green. Trust me, I would love to not hear a difference between these converters and analog signal. I would love to believe that expensive systems are all smoke and mirrors. That would save me a lot of money. I have no ulterior motive, I'm not selling converters or room treatment or anything at all (sorry Ethan and Fletcher!). I just want to make the best sounding music I can. I have good ears and monitors, heard what I heard, have retested it a few times since then, and made my decision based on that. On that note, I'm not likely to be in Connecticut any time soon. If you're ever in Calgary (and I still have these POS Firepods), I will gladly show you what I'm talking about. I even showed my mother the difference in a blind test and she heard it plain as day. If she can hear it, anyone can hear it.

Allow me to weigh in with a little personal experience. I thought my converters were just fine sounding (audibly transparent) for the longest time. I sent various sounds (guitars, full mixes...) out through the D/A and back in through the A/D a half dozen times in a row before I heard ANY change. I could see a change in the waveform (so I knew something was happening) but my ears could not hear it for a while, and even when I could it was very subtle. I figured if I couldn't hear a difference with cheap converters, why would I ever dish out thousands on 'nice' ones? Turns out the fact that I listen through those converters was greatly impacting the way I heard things, which is why I barely noticed a change when things were converted over and over again. One day I was playing guitar (amp in another room was mic'd up, going into my interface). I was monitoring through software at low latency, so I could play in real time but hear both A/D and D/A conversion. Then I switched over to an all analog signal path (mic -> preamp -> speakers), something that hadn't occurred to me before... BIG DIFFERENCE All of a sudden, when you took my cheap converters out of the equation, the low end was full (it sounded like a high pass filter had been removed), the high end was no longer harsh, there was an 'organic' detail to the whole frequency spectrum I had not yet heard through this setup. I couldn't believe how much my interface (converters specifically) had been coloring my sound. I'm not sure if audibly transparent converters exist, but my Firepod's certainly aren't them. To get audibly transparent (or even just 'nice color'), I would spend thousands in a heartbeat though.

Plenty of cheap condensers out there. None of them are particularly 'good' (a $100 dynamic mic tends to sound better) but if you just want to mess around with a condenser and get a feel for what that's like, go nuts. My advice is buy used, because if your skills are going to grow, you will most certainly outgrow that mic. Best not to lose money on it when you sell it.

If you're buying a cab new, this is the best deal out there that I've found. $219 for a Vintage 30, G12H30, G12T75, Greenback, Classic Lead 80, Hellatone 30, Hellatone 60, 60L or G12K100 loaded 1X12 = ridiculous! Same speaker choice but 2X12 is $358. http://avatarspeakers.com/ The Hellatone 60 or 60L is what I'd get. These are stock Vintage 30s (the L version is the special V30 Marshall uses in their Mode Four cabs) that have been broken in for you. Typically, it takes a little time (a few months of steady playing) to break in your speakers, which will get rid of any shrill high end and stiffness. From the Avatar site: "We start with a stock great sounding classic 60 watt Celestion Vintage 30. We convert it into a Hellatone by aging it slightly and by exercising the suspension for 15 hours so when you get it, it has a warmer tone on the very first note. These two aging processes warm up the low end and smooth out the midrange slightly."

Thanks for the advice. How much would the Gibson set me back? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ValveJrHD/ You'll just need a speaker cab. Like I said, try to find a Greenback or V30 loaded 1X12 or 2X12. Don't cheap out on the speaker, a bad one will make you think the head sounds like {censored}. The used Peavey Classic 30 suggestion is also solid.

Ditch amp modelling and built in effects and just get a simple, no-nonsense tube amp. In other words, spend the money where it'll actually affect the sound quality, not where it's going towards more 'stuff'. The Epiphone Valve Junior is a great little value and can be modded later on to compete with more high end stuff. There are a few others in that price range as well that are worth a look. It'll sound great right away if you get the head version and find a used cab with a Celestion Greenback or Vintage 30 (speakers have the biggest effect on tone if you ask me). And with a V30, you may be surprised at how loud it gets! Remember, versatility comes from your playing style, not from the amount of knobs on the amp. Some stomp-boxes can help (an overdrive pedal and a volume pedal (get an optical one!) are very nice to have) but ultimately if you want to sound a certain way, you need to play a certain way. Focus on that and just get an amp that sounds good.

Good Lord, you Americans get it so good with gas! Over the summer I was paying the equivalent of over $5.50 a gallon ($1.50 a liter while the Canadian Dollar was on par with the American). Right now it's $0.80 a liter and our dollar is equivalent to $0.80 USD, which means I'm paying about $2.45 a gallon. Best it's been in about a year I guess and I love it! But $1.75 a gallon!? That's like $0.57 a liter here! I would kill for that! That said, my city, Calgary, is basically funded on oil and gas alone. If gas isn't doing too well, we're not doing too well. So things are not looking so great here. I'm a college student, I was doing data entry for one of our biggest companies, EnCana, over the summer for very good pay (I paid my tuition and bought a lot of gear with that job). I doubt I'll be getting something like that again this summer. On the other hand, by the time I graduate, things will probably be looking up and housing prices will be at an all time low. So it'll probably be a good time to buy for me!

I've heard that bookshelves (filled with books) make decent improvised diffusors. I have no idea if it's true, but if you have one nearby you could try it. Anyone else know if this is true? Better than a flat wall I suppose, but unless you're actually going to read the books it's a waste of time.

I only start analyzing the recording quality if the music sucks. If it's good, then a good recording is a bonus.

If you're down with the work that'll be involved, go for it. But don't make it random. There are ways to calculate the placement of different sizes of wood so that you get even, predictable diffusion. Do a search.

Condensers in this price range are generally pretty terrible. I'd only recommend them if you're dying to know how a condenser sounds and responds in certain situations. If you just want a good sounding mic, I recommend the Audix I5. Others will say Shure SM57, but I prefer the I5 by a lot when it comes to vocals and acoustic guitars. Aside from the I5 just sounding better on those sources to my ears, it has a lot higher output, so you are much less likely to run into situations where you have to crank the gain on your preamp all the way to get a usable level, which is going to make things very noisy with most inexpensive preamps. That said, if you need a more midrangey/'hard' sound, the SM57 is not bad. And on snare and electric guitars, it's often just what you need. Once again, just my opinion (as every response will be)...

There are not a whole lot of options for less than $100 and 4 octoves, here's one. M-Audio KeyRig 49 That's what I have and I love it. I don't feel like there's any need to upgrade or spend any more. The keyboard does what I want it to do. I like the software it came with too. Hard to believe at this price actually. If I were a pianist, looking to mimic the exact feel of a real piano, I suppose I would not be satisfied though.

Yeah, move the speakers around first. Generally it's a good rule of thumb to have your listening position 38% (I'm pretty sure it's 38% anyway, it's been a while since I moved my equipment around) into the room, and then place your speakers to form an equilateral triangle with your head. Move them forward and back and use the position that has the flattest response. Try to get in the direct middle of the room as far as left/right is concerned and try to get those sides to respond evenly (for example, a bookshelf on one side but a bare wall on the other is going to screw up your left/right perception a little). From then, broadband absorbers can help, but please don't believe (or spread) all the ridiculous hype concerning these products. It takes a lot of absorption to be effective and without the right depth, you probably won't see results effecting lower frequencies than 80-100 Hz. Still, the best thing to do is get 6" or thicker fiberglass insulation panels and put them in the corners of your room (the most effective place to trap ringing bass). They will affect the whole frequency range and clear things up. Very noticeable in kick and snare drums for example. I have a few broadband absorbers in use right now. Two under my desk, where the wall meets the floor and one behind my computer screen, in between my monitors. They've helped tame a dip I had at 100 Hz. I'll be installing more, since I believe a dead sounding room is better than a bad sounding room (my recordings are plagued by 'basement recording' sound any time I've got a mic that picks up any kind of natural ambiance in use). But just know that to truly solve the problem takes a good sounding room in the first place.

Just curious, why are you low passing all your electric guitars during tracking? I've never seen anyone do that. Not during tracking, sorry if I made it sound like that. I do this during mixing although I wouldn't hesitate to do it during tracking as well if I knew what I was doing. With any high-gain amp, there is inevitably going to be some high end sizzle that is simply unmusical and not helpful. And yet, it's good to have high frequencies up front and present in many cases. So I'll play around with a low pass filter with a steep cut-off to find where the guitars still have a bright, rich harmonic content, but lack the noise of the upper high end. Usually this is somewhere in the 11k to 15k range, depends on the amp. It depends on the mic too, an SM57 or e906 won't pick up much of this, but a condenser or something like an SM7B (which I absolutely love on high gain guitars provided there are high and low passes) will typically pick up tons. Unfortunately, with crappier guitar rigs (includes guitars, pedals, amps, speakers and even players), the nice harmonic content and unmusical fizz often go hand in hand, so you can't have one and not the other all the time. High passing is much more common practice. Usually somewhere between 100Hz or as high as 250Hz depending on the sound you're going for I guess. The idea is just to shave off the low end that sounds loose/unmusical/gets in the way of the bass guitar/etc. This will tighten up the guitar sound considerably. Be careful though, too high a frequency and you're cutting off the fundamentals!

It sounds pretty good. Maybe a little dark/muddy with too grainy a top end but I won't complain too much. At this point it probably comes down to personal preference more than anything.

I have a feeling I'd end up using the KSM27 a foot or so off the grill (high and low passed, which I tend to do with any electric guitar material). Possibly mixed with an SM57 at the same distance to add a little more dimension to things. That said, I'd be trying every combination I could think of, starting with a 57 up against the grill, since you're used to it.

With the ratio number, some get confused too. Flip it around to make it easy. If its 4:1 ratio then audio over the threshold will be reduced by 1/4. A 10:1 ratio would be 1/10th audio reduction any signal over the threshold. That's incorrect actually. But you're on to something. In the case of a 10:1 ratio, 1/10th is not how much it will be compressed, but how much you will be left with (9/10 will be compressed). Hence a 10:1 ratio compresses more than a 4:1 ratio.

BUT what if something is set 4:1 but input level only goes 2dB above threshold. Does the compressor still work? Even though the input level hasn't gone 4dB above threshold? Of course the compressor still works. If it's over the threshold, even by 2 dB, it's going to compress. You can use Majoria's formula to figure out how much it will compress. Whether you're 10 dB over, 2 dB over, or 0.02584 dB over, the ratio will determine what percentage of that overage gets compressed. Ethan, attack and release times (while integral to compression) are a topic for a different discussion altogether. This discussion only concerns the basics of compression ratios.

Oh wait, Wikipedia to the rescue! Looks like I wasted some time cause this would have sufficed... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

Okay here's a quick graph to show what I mean...

Dan I know that the higher the threshold the more compression just trying to understand it for my own curiosity. For instance if threshold is at 0db and ratio is 8:1. If something goes over the threshold by 2dB is it pushed down to -6dB Nope, I could be wrong about this, but here it goes... In this situation, if it were a 2:1 ratio, you would be pushing it down 1dB. 4:1 would be 1.5 dB. 8:1 would be 1.75 dB. Infinity:1 would of course be the full 2dB. It makes a lot more sense if you draw a graph. Once again, I'm not totally 100% on this. And like I said, it doesn't really matter as long as you're using your ears to determine the right amount of compression for the situation.

You don't need to know numbers, your ears are what matters. Just know that with a higher ratio, things will be compressed flatter. With an infinite ratio, all compressed signal will be pushed to the same level. With a 2:1 ratio, you won't be compressing very much, the higher that first number goes, the more you're compressing. Simple stuff really.