Paying a deposit to play? ah?

[werdna]

I was talking to this venue about booking my band and everything was going normally, they said they'd love to get us in, they had a few locals to open for us, everything sounded great.

 

But then, when it comes time to play she says "Since this is your first time playing in this market, we need assurance that you will bring fans to the show. We are going to need you to pay a $200 deposit and fans will be polled apon entering the club to see what band they are there to see. Once you have brought in enough fans to earn the $200, you will then be awarded $4 for every fan in your name and your deposit will be returned. If the amount is not reached, then you will receive no payment and we will keep your deposit. Don't worry, this is one time only. We just need to see how well you draw."

 

:poke:

 

so, basically:

I pay $200

If 34 (34 x $6 tickets = just over $200) or more people say they came to see us, we get our $200 back + $4 for each person meaning we get at least $136.

If we don't get that many people, we just payed $200 to play a show.

 

I said no. It makes one wonder though, how does this place ever get touring bands? And isn't the job of local openers to bring people to the shows of unknowns like us?

[sabriel9v]

After reading tons of posts just like this within the music biz and bwb forums, I'm starting to wonder...is there some bizarre and grotesque existential force out there that was created to screw over musicians? I suggest we go on a crusade to find this force and destroy it. Who's with me?

[werdna]

You have my sword!

[Reincaster]

And my Axe!

 

heheh, see what I did there? It's a pun! Axe = geetar!

[Etienne Rambert]

Sabriel9v:

"...is there some bizarre and grotesque existential force out there that was created to screw over musicians?

 

 

Yeah. It's called the law of supply and demand.

 

 

"...I suggest we go on a crusade to find this force and destroy it. Who's with me?"

 

 

Good luck on your quest.

 

Werdna:

 

"And isn't the job of local openers to bring people to the shows of unknowns like us?"

 

 

A club owner might think it is his job to turn a profit and stay in business.

If a band can help do that - good. If not, they share the loss.

 

That's how a club owner might look at it.

[Michael Blue]

...Is this where some long-haired freak says; "and my bow"?

 

I just know it is...

 

Where are the short furry people?

 

[daddymack]

 

Sabriel9v: Yeah. It's called the law of supply and demand. Good luck on your quest. Werdna: A club owner might think it is his job to turn a profit and stay in business. If a band can help do that - good. If not, they share the loss. That's how a club owner might look at it.

 

 

This lesson in basic capitalistic economics was brought to you by someone in one of the last remaining Communist countries:poke:

[Etienne Rambert]

daddymack:

This lesson in basic capitalistic economics was brought to you by someone in one of the last remaining Communist countries :poke:

 

Now that's funny!

 

And it works on more levels than one.

[hubberjub]

Absolute BS. Bars should make their money by selling alcohol. Tell them you're willing to play for the door. That means that they stand to lose nothing. It's that simple. You are doing them a favor by providing their clients with an entertaining experience. It's win-win.

[soundwave106]

 

A club owner might think it is his job to turn a profit and stay in business. If a band can help do that - good. If not, they share the loss. That's how a club owner might look at it.

 

 

For many clubs, bands are just background noise that gives the drinking regulars something to listen to. These type of clubs make money off of the drinks. The bands don't get much but that's okay.

 

Some clubs seem to think they are the Whiskey A-Go-Go in LA's 1980s metal scene and want to do "pay for playing" events accordingly... without exposing you to the greater share of the profits the Whiskey's "four wall" model entailed, and without the venue prestige and/or facility capabilities. If it comes down to "pay-for-playing" schemes like this, might as well just rent the f'n venue and promote the show yourself, right?

[werdna]

 

A club owner might think it is his job to turn a profit and stay in business. If a band can help do that - good. If not, they share the loss. That's how a club owner might look at it.

 

Oh, I know. I just think its a little ridiculous for the owner to expect a band to pay $200 for the "privilege" of playing there.

 

 

This lesson in basic capitalistic economics was brought to you by someone in one of the last remaining Communist countries:poke:

 

 

haha

[Etienne Rambert]

I agree it sucks. That's why I keep a day job.

 

Objectively, for a Whiskey-a-go go kind of gig, pay 4 play might be worth it.

It sounds like this is a marginal gig. But if it's a new market and you you think

there is an up side to the gig, it might be worth your $200.

 

And BTW, if you want to learn what capitalism looks like,

come to Communist China or Vietnam. Saigon is the kind of

place that would make Milton Friedman very happy.

[7sickstrings]

Here in San Diego it's generally agreed that the music scene is not great, but even WE aren't that bad. 9 times out of 10 (and possibly more, I'm just being safe) venues will give bands presale tickets. Whatever they make off of those tickets is theirs. At the door they poll, and the bands get a percentage of that. NOWHERE that I've played has ever mentioned a "deposit", and there's no reason they should.

Think about this. If the venue is open that night, what does it cost them to have a band there? I seriously doubt that they make LESS money when a band plays, so what's the point of the deposit? It's another of the old "pay to play" scams.

[YeahDoIt]

I don't remember ever paying to play anywhere.

[UMT]

I play for a set fee and that's it! I've also owned a tavern and a night club and lost my ass many a time on bands.

 

I remember this club (still play there 1 or 2x per year) where the pay was very mediocre but the place had a LONG history of being a music club and the people that went there, went there to drink and HEAR MUSIC. The place had a big reputation and every band wanted to be able to say that they played there. The problem: the place is very small. 100 people and it's like a sardine can. But it's a very fun place to play. The former owner used to have this 'deal' with the band, you made the 'minimum' and if the bar sold X dollars worth of booze, you got a 'bonus.' The old owner liked my band so much that we made the 'bonus' about every other time we played there although we always packed the place. I knew another guy who played there quite a bit for years. The owner was always telling him 'Gee, you came 'THIS CLOSE' to making the 'bonus.' One time the guys asks him: 'Well, just how close did we come.' Club owner says $20.00! (Bonus was usually an extra 50-100) So the guy says, 'I'll give you $20.00 and you pay us the bonus.' Club owner: "OH NO! It don't work that way"

 

Polling? Polling? Yeah, right. Take this 'poll'

 

The problem is that the more bands that go along with this type of crap, the more clubs pick up on it and all of a sudden, an entire market does it the same way.

 

Somebody said if you were going to do that, rent your own hall and throw the gig yourself. That is better than these 'pay to play' games.

[Cygnus64]

After reading tons of posts just like this within the music biz and bwb forums, I'm starting to wonder...is there some bizarre and grotesque existential force out there that was created to screw over musicians?

 

It's a simple lack of respect.

 

A lot of it emanates from "musicians" themselves. When I read forums like this one, I am amazed at some of the attitudes. When musicians are suggesting giving away music and making money off of T-shirts, there goes the neighborhood. When people suggest that music should be "free", bar owners really aren't going to have much respect for your product.

 

When a musician thinks that his product is worth -$200, we have a huge problem. And we all suffer.

 

But then, when it comes time to play she says "Since this is your first time playing in this market, we need assurance that you will bring fans to the show.

 

If the venue booked quality bands consistently, there would not be a problem. People would know that anytime you stepped foot in that venue, the quality would be at a certain level, regardless of who the performers were. They dont. They are willing to put any doofus on stage who hands over 200 bucks.

[sabriel9v]

 

This lesson in basic capitalistic economics was brought to you by someone in one of the last remaining Communist countries:poke:

 

 

The last remaining Communist countries? Maybe this existential force is communist...prepare to bear arms gentlemen!

[sabriel9v]

 

Absolute BS. Bars should make their money by selling alcohol. Tell them you're willing to play for the door. That means that they stand to lose nothing. It's that simple. You are doing them a favor by providing their clients with an entertaining experience. It's win-win.

 

 

Alcohol and possibly food or other entertainment sales. The artist is working as a temporary employee of the venue for that night...would the venue ask their other employees to pay to come into work?

[daddymack]

IAnd BTW, if you want to learn what capitalism looks like, come to Communist China or Vietnam. Saigon is the kind of place that would make Milton Friedman very happy.

I do business all over Asia, and I totally agree that the nascent capitalistic movement in what were ostensibly agrarian-based communist cultures has snowballed over the last decade, promulgated in no small part by the desire for rapid economic growth based on industrialization and foreign trade, which requires massive amounts of hard currency.

 

Marx was wrong, because he failed to factor in human nature in his Utopian ideal of sociallistic unanimity. People want to be valued for, and based on, their contribution to society, and to say all contributions are equal says that the medical doctor's job is no more valuable than the janitor's...so why would anyone want to go through all that training when they would fare as well with none?

 

I'll just stop now...

[masterbuilt]

Cygnus hits the nail on the proverbial head once again... I'm with you all the way in this argument and all of the others like it. We are witnessing the demise of music and the working musician. We will be supplanted by the likes of Brittany-esque bimbos with implants and tight jeans wiggling little fannies while five similarly clad bubble-heads dance and bee-bop to the same choreography. This commercialized fluff will most likely be spooled off the 'net in a paid subscription and the bar will feature the odd karaoke night as a "real treat", live entertainment.

 

Real musicians, the ones that are broke and destitute will beg for money to afford a spot on the stage of the sleazy-cheap bar and grill to get to play a set or four and since their friends have stopped admitting that they knew them long ago, they will forever owe the clubs for not packing the house.

[werdna]

 

We are witnessing the demise of music and the working musician. We will be supplanted by the likes of Brittany-esque bimbos with implants and tight jeans wiggling little fannies while five similarly clad bubble-heads dance and bee-bop to the same choreography. This commercialized fluff will most likely be spooled off the 'net in a paid subscription and the bar will feature the odd karaoke night as a "real treat", live entertainment.

 

 

Soon, every club will have the same band playing the same song, no matter where you go.

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[sabriel9v]

I do business all over Asia, and I totally agree that the nascent capitalistic movement in what were ostensibly agrarian-based communist cultures has snowballed over the last decade, promulgated in no small part by the desire for rapid economic growth based on industrialization and foreign trade, which requires massive amounts of hard currency.

 

Say that 50 times fast and with a lisp.

[tim_7string]

You did the right thing, werdna. I'd never pay $200 to play anywhere, not even if I had the "opportunity" to open for a band like Van Halen for "exposure."

 

People who think it's justified to charge a band a frickin' deposit for the "right" to play in their tiny club are messed up in the head. The music should always speak for itself. If the band rocks, the people will come. So, there is no reason at all to pay to perform. That's the risk the bar owner should take on his own.

[BlueStrat]

 

Absolute BS. Bars should make their money by selling alcohol. Tell them you're willing to play for the door. That means that they stand to lose nothing. It's that simple. You are doing them a favor by providing their clients with an entertaining experience. It's win-win.

 

 

Not necessarily so.

 

You can have a packed house and not do squat for alcohol sales.

 

I played a club out of town one night and we got there a night early. So we checked out the band playing there that night. They were a reggae band from Colorado, all white guys (and the lead singer talked with a phony Jamaican accent- "let my peepol go mon!" It was hilarious)

 

Anyway the room was full of hippies drinking water and orange juice all night and smoking pot out back. The bartenders were pretty pissed.

[sabriel9v]

 

You can have a packed house and not do squat for alcohol sales.

 

 

This is true. That's why I can't get angry at venues that offer small appetizers and food courses on their menu alongside alcohol. In addition, some venues will have strictly entertainment nights, for instance a popular movie night or poker tournament night. These events may look cheesy from the outset, but it keeps the electricity and water running within the place for a little bit longer.