Members Ryst Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 A while back on the "backstage" forum I posted a thread stating I was thinking of giving away my EP when it's finished. Most people disagreed. I don't want to state my arguments for it but here is a recent Trent Reznor posting that I found interesting and thought I would share wiht you guys. Enjoy and discuss: http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?30,767183 (disclaimer) This was written on a bumpy Euro-bus ride across the wilderness - may ramble a bit but I think the point gets across. TR I posted a message on Twitter yesterday stating I thought The Beastie Boys and TopSpin Media "got it right" regarding how to sell music in this day and age. Here's a link to their store: [illcommunication.beastieboys.com] Shortly thereafter, I got some responses from people stating the usual "yeah, if you're an established artist - what if you're just trying to get heard?" argument. In an interview I did recently this topic came up and I'll reiterate what I said here. If you are an unknown / lesser-known artist trying to get noticed / established: * Establish your goals. What are you trying to do / accomplish? If you are looking for mainstream super-success (think Lady GaGa, Coldplay, U2, Justin Timberlake) - your best bet in my opinion is to look at major labels and prepare to share all revenue streams / creative control / music ownership. To reach that kind of critical mass these days your need old-school marketing muscle and that only comes from major labels. Good luck with that one. If you're forging your own path, read on. * Forget thinking you are going to make any real money from record sales. Make your record cheaply (but great) and GIVE IT AWAY. As an artist you want as many people as possible to hear your work. Word of mouth is the only true marketing that matters. To clarify: Parter with a TopSpin or similar or build your own website, but what you NEED to do is this - give your music away as high-quality DRM-free MP3s. Collect people's email info in exchange (which means having the infrastructure to do so) and start building your database of potential customers. Then, offer a variety of premium packages for sale and make them limited editions / scarce goods. Base the price and amount available on what you think you can sell. Make the packages special - make them by hand, sign them, make them unique, make them something YOU would want to have as a fan. Make a premium download available that includes high-resolution versions (for sale at a reasonable price) and include the download as something immediately available with any physical purchase. Sell T-shirts. Sell buttons, posters... whatever. Don't have a TopSpin as a partner? Use Amazon for your transactions and fulfillment. [www.amazon.com] Use TuneCore to get your music everywhere. [www.tunecore.com] Have a realistic idea of what you can expect to make from these and budget your recording appropriately. The point is this: music IS free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS (for now). So... have the public get what they want FROM YOU instead of a torrent site and garner good will in the process (plus build your database). The Beastie Boys' site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through. The database you are amassing should not be abused, but used to inform people that are interested in what you do when you have something going on - like a few shows, or a tour, or a new record, or a webcast, etc. Have your MySpace page, but get a site outside MySpace - it's dying and reads as cheap / generic. Remove all Flash from your website. Remove all stupid intros and load-times. MAKE IT SIMPLE TO NAVIGATE AND EASY TO FIND AND HEAR MUSIC (but don't autoplay). Constantly update your site with content - pictures, blogs, whatever. Give people a reason to return to your site all the time. Put up a bulletin board and start a community. Engage your fans (with caution!) Make cheap videos. Film yourself talking. Play shows. Make interesting things. Get a Twitter account. Be interesting. Be real. Submit your music to blogs that may be interested. NEVER CHASE TRENDS. Utilize the multitude of tools available to you for very little cost of any - Flickr / YouTube / Vimeo / SoundCloud / Twitter etc. If you don't know anything about new media or how people communicate these days, none of this will work. The role of an independent musician these days requires a mastery of first hand use of these tools. If you don't get it - find someone who does to do this for you. If you are waiting around for the phone to ring or that A & R guy to show up at your gig - good luck, you're going to be waiting a while. Hope this helps, and I'll scour responses for intelligent comments I can respond to. TR TopSpin Media info: [topspinmedia.com] ** quick update: Thanks for the insightful comments already - when I get a moment (and a reliable internet connection) I'll respond to some of your very valid points. Please keep in mind - these were just some thoughts I quickly wrote down and posted and not meant to be a complete guide by any means. I've neglected to get into publishing and some other things. I'll update pretty soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Metrosonus Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 i agree 100%. know what your goal is and plan accordingly. and i thought i was so revoloutionary in wanting to give the music away. i'm currently working up to this myself.. i plan on doing handmade shirts, stickers, ect with custom artwork that i plan to put into a large DVD box along with a CD. one flat price buys you a couple stickers, shirt and CD. or mix and match ect. glad to know i'm not crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wide Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 [YOUTUBE]BWFFxE-hC9E[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 While I always find Trent Reznor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Metrosonus Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 that's pretty grim. what about playing and performing for enjoyment? there are many many people such as myself that create original works simply for the pleasure of doing so and just want to connect with people. I have a career and a life i'm quite happy with an frankly, I dont want to do what it takes to get money out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 that's pretty grim. what about playing and performing for enjoyment? there are many many people such as myself that create original works simply for the pleasure of doing so and just want to connect with people. I have a career and a life i'm quite happy with an frankly, I dont want to do what it takes to get money out of it. That is totally great for you. In that case music is your hobby and not your business. I assure you that music is not Trent Reznor's hobby; it is his vocation. That is why he has to make an income from it in order to keep doing it. What buisness are you in? How would you feel if someone really had a dream to do what you do, and told your boss that they would do it just for kicks for free? Would that matter to you? I am just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Metrosonus Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 i never said anything with regards to NIN. i said it was a rather grim view of the world that if you're not making money with your music, you're being self delusional, with which i disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 i said it was a rather grim view of the world that if you're not making money with your music, you're being self delusional, with which i disagree.But thats not what I said. Trent Reznor is telling artists and bands his version of how they can be successful. Thats what the article is about. It is delusional for a musician or an artist to think that they can make a living with their art by giving it away. That is what I said. As I said before; if music is your hobby and you have no intention of making it your career, you don't need to make any money from it. So you are misquoting or misunderstanding what I wrote. I trust you get it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTBthefourth Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 Why does music always have to be a business? If you're in a dead market like I am (Cleveland OH) you have to do what you can to get people to listen to your music, let alone come out and actually see you. All the clubs are shutting down, and the ones that are left don't really care what's happening. Everyone in my band (which is all originals) does it for fun. What I mean is, we take it seriously, but know that there is no money in it, and certainly don't rely on it for income. So what's the harm in giving away the music for free to get people to listen? They have a hard enough time paying $3-$5 cover, so why would they pay $5-$10 for a cd from some unknown band? And as far as Trent, you are correct about him building the NIN "brand" with funding from a major label. But he even says in the beginning that those days are over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 9, 2009 Members Share Posted July 9, 2009 And as far as Trent, you are correct about him building the NIN "brand" with funding from a major label. But he even says in the beginning that those days are over.But it is too late for him to do that. Pandora is already out of the box. He is who he is because of his major label benefits. To say now that that is all BS, and music should be free after the business made him who he is disingenuous to say the least. He is not someone who can tell someone else how to do it because they cannot do it like he did without a major label making them a star first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTBthefourth Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Jotown, as I stated, we are giving the music away to promote the band and the music. My point was that they aren't going to pay a cover plus more money for an unknown local band, especially when they don't want to pay cover in the first place (or a ticket ahead of time). And I completely am in agreement regarding Trent. His perspective on "how to make it" is biased because he made it with help of a major label. But I'd be willing to bet that when he was in an unknown local band, they weren't selling demo tapes for $15 each. Trent may have also been making a good point that although most bands these days rely on myspace or whatever social networking site is out there, that these are just trends that people will abandon as soon as the next new site is out there. It seems that twitter has all but killed myspace and facebook, and I'm sure the next will do the same to twitter. It won't matter that you've had x thousand friends and views and plays, if nobody visits the site or if the site goes belly up. Regardless, musicians need to accept the fact that although everyone can make and record music at home, and sound decently professional, there are few opportunities to be picked up by a major label and make a rock star's salary. More players equals a bigger pool for the labels to choose from, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Yeah, that all makes straight up sense. I'm caught in this dynamic tension: last winter I did a song by song DL-count of the ~400 folkie song/podcasts I have hosted on the Internet Archive; when I totaled it, it was over 272,000 DLs. From spot counts, I project the total count is well over 300,000 now. There are currently 113 song-casts with over 1000 DLs each. But it's been more than a couple years since I made more than gas fare and free [coffee] drinks from music. That said, I don't see T-shirts and refrigerator magnets as going anywhere for me... But I am definitely going to collect into a book format a bunch of the vignettes from my blog that accompany the song casts and sell that via Amazon's CreateSpace on demand publishing system. Ditto for CDs. I figure there's so little market for hardcopy CDs that Amazon's on-demand system (with its higher per-disk production cost) will be almost more a convenience for Luddite fans. But I have toyed with the idea of individually hand packaged CD's. And I've prepaid an album on Tunecore (that will go to all their stores -- they had a holiday special), so that will get my tracks in the iTunes, Rhapsody, Amazon, etc, stores. And I'm also -- spurred in part by yesterday's thread (started by AudioIcon) on websites -- going to redo my music site(s) with an emphasis on personal info, background and all the stuff I really didn't want to do. I find me boring. But somehow I've got to make me interesting. I'm thinking about hiring a handsome young actor to portray me on YouTube, go out to glitzy Hollywood parties, and get in headline making brawls with paparazzi and drunken football players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Charles Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 For an unknown band to think that they can give their music away and still make a living is pretty much a fantasy. When you give your music away you are saying to the world, to yourself and to the Universe that your music is worthless... Totally worked for the Arctic Monkeys... Just depends on if it's good and a ton of people latch on to it. These guys gave everything away until the buzz got started and they got noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Just depends on if it's good and a ton of people latch on to it. These guys gave everything away until the buzz got started and they got noticed.Thats the same fantasy that people in bands have always had. It's more like the lottery, and its more about luck than talent. People like Reznor who are telling people how to do something that they have yet to do themselves are not really helping anybody figure out the new landscape that we are all in. And he isn't in it because he is already famous and a star in his own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 For an unknown band to think that they can give their music away and still make a living is pretty much a fantasy. When you give your music away you are saying to the world, to yourself and to the Universe that your music is worthless.It's a fantasy when sellers think they can set prices for their goods based on their idea of what the value should be while ignoring very real market factors. And it's my hunch that many of those who ignore market realities will blame their failure to sell to expectation on factors outside their control. As long as I've been in or observing the music business, I've run into folk who engage in the elaborate and rather embarrassing fantasy that their own work is so transcendent in its appeal that it will somehow defy cold, hard reality and carry the artist to the success he believes his music deserves. Markets -- and reality -- don't tend to work like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Music has always had value; this is not a fantasy. Giving your product away for free and thinking that you can still make money is a fantasy and very poor business plan. People are still selling music. People are still getting paid for their music. Yes it's harder, but your dogma about "market realites" rings a bit bitter to me. And we are not talking here about "some people" we are talking about the business. as a whole. If you have really been observing the music buisness for more than a couple of years you would know that it has supported thousands of artists, technicians, and crafts people. And this isn't because their work was "transcendant" but because it had/has value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Music has value Jotown..Just not recorded music ON ITS OWN, at the present time. What you have to do that you can't seem to understand is find new and innovative ways to use that fact to your advantage in marketing and upselling like Reznor is saying. You're not getting it and I suspect you won't until a lot of people start using the model and are having success. It's never going back to the old days of $10 CD's and Platinum albums. Sorry Buddy. I wish it were too but it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Music has value Jotown..Just not recorded music ON ITS OWN, at the present time. What you have to do that you can't seem to understand is find new and innovative ways to use that fact to your advantage in marketing and upselling like Reznor is saying. You're not getting it and I suspect you won't until a lot of people start using the model and are having success. It's never going back to the old days of $10 CD's and Platinum albums. Sorry Buddy. I wish it were too but it's not.Again. I dissagree. I have sold over a thousand CD's in the last 8 months at my gigs. Because I believe that my work has value I refuse to give it away. I have made over ten grand on this one CD. Reznor is no authority on the new record biz because he is a relic of the old record biz. By all means, if you feel your music is worthless, please give it away. But for me. I will continue to sell my CD's, I will make 20 grand selling CD's by years end, while you keep insisting that you can't sell music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 I`m pretty passionate about this topic but I`ll stay cool. This is the deal with me... I make a living making music. Granted, its not always my music but still, its music and I enjoy what I do. However, I also charge a fee for what I do because I`m good at it and people seem to enjoy what I do so they don`t mind paying. So... if you are giving music away, something that you have probably really worked your tail off for, then good for you. You have my blessings. However, I work really hard and have practiced for years to get where I am and I just can`t put it out there for free. I have also learned a listen... a while back I was charging $150 an hour to sing and play at weddings but then I met this guy that was charging $200 just to play and then he hired a singer who made $200. Now I charge $400 when I used to charge $150 and you know what...? People pay for it. If you do quality work, people will pay. Trent Rezor, Radiohead, etc... want to give their music away for some sort of radical marketing plan... be my guest. Just don`t expect it from me. I would be curious to know how many actually do download your record once its free and I would also like to know how much more fans come out to your shows after you give away your music. Unless the numbers are staggeringly increased, you may want to re-consider your plan. But for now, you have my blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 I`m pretty passionate about this topic but I`ll stay cool. This is the deal with me... I make a living making music. Granted, its not always my music but still, its music and I enjoy what I do. However, I also charge a fee for what I do because I`m good at it and people seem to enjoy what I do so they don`t mind paying. So... if you are giving music away, something that you have probably really worked your tail off for, then good for you. You have my blessings. However, I work really hard and have practiced for years to get where I am and I just can`t put it out there for free. I have also learned a listen... a while back I was charging $150 an hour to sing and play at weddings but then I met this guy that was charging $200 just to play and then he hired a singer who made $200. Now I charge $400 when I used to charge $150 and you know what...? People pay for it. If you do quality work, people will pay. Trent Rezor, Radiohead, etc... want to give their music away for some sort of radical marketing plan... be my guest. Just don`t expect it from me. I would be curious to know how many actually do download your record once its free and I would also like to know how much more fans come out to your shows after you give away your music. Unless the numbers are staggeringly increased, you may want to re-consider your plan. But for now, you have my blessings. You're not getting it..He's not saying PERFORM FOR FREE and give away merchandise for free, etc..He's saying use the recorded music that you make cheaply to be a loss leader to get them to love you and come to your shows, buy limited edition, HIGH QUALITY, LIMITED EDITION PACKAGES, merchandise, hand made, signed stuff, etc...Reel them in with the music and make them a FAN. Selling to the casual listener is over. It's about being good and getting REAL FANS who will then give you ALL OF THEIR MONEY. Go read what he is saying before you comment and you'll get it in a quickness. I charge a lot when I perform Always more then anyone else in the area and because I'm good at what I do, like you I end up making more playing less, so I agree with your performance marketing plan because I live it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Music has always had value; this is not a fantasy. Giving your product away for free and thinking that you can still make money is a fantasy and very poor business plan. People are still selling music. People are still getting paid for their music. Yes it's harder, but your dogma about "market realites" rings a bit bitter to me. And we are not talking here about "some people" we are talking about the business. as a whole. If you have really been observing the music buisness for more than a couple of years you would know that it has supported thousands of artists, technicians, and crafts people. And this isn't because their work was "transcendant" but because it had/has value. Making music is an avocation for me. When I got involved with recording in the 80s, one of the very first things my observations led me to was a confirmation that the music biz is a sucker proposition for musicians who think they can have a decent normal life and still be a full time musician. Yes, there are those who can do it -- and I'm happy to say I've known a small handful -- but that is nothing compared to the folks who've been ripped off left, right, upside, and down, by a never-ending stream of opportunists, scam artists, club owners, managers, studio owners and other 'recording professionals,' 'educators' hawking how to programs and loan mill schools... oh, and let's not forget publishers, labels, and lawyers. If I'm bitter, it's for other people and creative artists in general. I removed myself from active participation in the music business as a studio engineer, producer, and project studio owner in part because I didn't want to be part of the whole scam. Of all the people in the music biz -- the ones with the least likelihood of ever breaking even are the people making the music. Maybe some things never change. But I'm perfectly happy to see a lot of these rats go down with the sinking ship of the music biz as we've known it. __________ PS... With regard to pricing and marketing strategies: someone who produces a product or service is free to set his prices at whatever rate/level he wishes. What I was pointing out in my first post was that, from my perspective, it's foolish to ignore market realities when setting prices. I shouldn't think that's a notion that needs to be explained -- or justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryst Posted July 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 Sell your music and declare to the world (and your fans) that what you create has value. Give it away and they probably won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sad Darwin Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 While I always find Trent Reznor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members williamgatesens Posted July 10, 2009 Members Share Posted July 10, 2009 it has been my experience that most of the people that are so down on these methods and eager to debunk them are usually people that play music nobody really wants to hear in the first place (see: cover bands/joe bobs blues review/bar bands/dino-rock/just plain bland) i still think this can (and does) work for young bands with something new to offer. overnite success no, but you will get much farther than bands selling cd-r's for $5. probably not going to do much at all for the people that used to play tennis racquet in the mirror as a little kid dreaming they were in Kiss or some crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 people that used to play tennis racquet in the mirror as a little kid dreaming they were in Kiss or some crap I used to swing my $18 guitar, watching myself in the mirror, pretending I was Kelly Robinson practicing my tennis swing -- and me and my partner, Scotty, were on a secret mission, getting ready to go out and debrief some exotic Asian beauties over champagne and oysters overlooking the Kowloon waterfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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