Fender amp guys. Silverface vs. Blackface?

[Alex W]

I have always heard never buy a Silverface Fender. Never much of an explanation besides being told they sound horrible. What's your experience with this? Do they actually sound that much worse than their Blackface counterparts? What are the actual mechanical differences that would account for them sounding so much different?

 

If I'm looking at a Bassmna what should I expect to pay for both a Blackface and a Silverface?

[ajympt]

Pretty good run down here-

 

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/article.php?id=275

 

I have an early 70's non master super reverb that sounds just fine BTW.

[GreatDane]

i have love for SF fenders. i've owned a SF bassman, and two SF vibro-champs and they are/were awesome. nice and punchy, took pedals well and broke up well with the volume cranked.

[docjeffrey]

You can easily upgrade a SF to BF specs with a soldering iron and a few caps. Some places sell [overpriced] kits to do this; but if you can read a schematic, it's a lot cheaper. I think that the trannies and chokes are pretty much the same on both.

 

And some SF models [Champ?] have the same circuit topography as their BF counterparts. I'm not a Fender guy, so maybe Wyatt can chime in here.

[Doctor Morbius]

Once you get into the ultralinear power transformers, changing a SF to a BF is near impossible from what I've read.

[StevenJM]

i've owned a SF bassman head and regret selling it. It was the 100 watt model... somewhat recently i purchased "THE BEAST"... the fender bassman ten... the 4x10 combo amp. a lot bigger than the 59 bassman.

 

The thing is so big and heavy... but sounds amazing, especially with a power booster in front of it and a holy grail reverb... i love the tone.

 

a friend of mine had a blackface bassman, and that thing had some of the sweetest overdrive on it... no need for a booster on that thing, but i'm still happy with my SF. it just needs a little boost.

[DaleH]

I'll take either.

[the_bleeding]

i love silverface sounds. I've played a silverface champ, and twin. Twin was stiff until it got loud, but it still sounded great for surf and twangy cleans.

 

 

Once you get into the ultralinear power transformers, changing a SF to a BF is near impossible from what I've read.

 

 

im sure you can just lift the ultralinear taps. Would work just the same, but in pentode and with less crossover distortion.

[tiltsta]

Many SF amps are really great. The early ones are often the same spec as their blackface predecessors. The later ones include gain stages, master volumes, and lots of other features that make them more complex...and to many people, take away a lot of the magic of the simpler blackface designs. If you are looking for one, try to get an early model. I've played a couple of the late 70s master volume amps, and they still sounded pretty good to my ears, so I would at least give one a try if you run across one.

[Mister Zero]

I've owned a couple silverface Vibrochamps (including a super-sweet '68) and I've owned a '73 Twin Reverb for about 15 years now. Fantastic amp w/ a good overdrive to boost the front end.

[McHale]

I've got a silverface Princeton Reverb and I'm pretty happy with it. It's older than I am and holding up better than I am.

[Help!I'maRock!]

my silverface champs are excellent.

 

i had a silverface deluxe reverb for a while, but i didn't like it as my main gigging amp. in the house is one thing, but these things are now 40 years old and starting to need major repairs. like cap jobs. i sold it and bought an Allen Encore.

[Red Barron]

Silverface Bassmans are really awesome amps. A friend of mine had one of the 100 watt versions and that thing up loud with a decent overdrive pedal in the front was a thing to behold. It was one of the ballsier amps I have ever heard.

['s mel gibson]

 

my silverface champs are excellent. i had a silverface deluxe reverb for a while, but i didn't like it as my main gigging amp. in the house is one thing, but these things are now 40 years old and starting to need major repairs. like cap jobs. i sold it and bought an Allen Encore.

 

 

Cap jobs aren't that expensive or are they?

[volvo1800]

Iv heard them back to back, while the black face sounds better, I wouldn't say a silverface sounds bad by any means.

[hecticone]

Looking at the schematics I can't tell the difference between my 71 pro and earlier blackface pro"s

[Doctor Morbius]

 

Looking at the schematics I can't tell the difference between my 71 pro and earlier blackface pro"s

There may not have been a difference between the blackface and early '70s SF models. CBS didn't start mucking with all of their product lines at the same time.

 

As an example, '72 was the first year that a master volume was included on a SF Twin Reverb. Prior to that I believe they were pretty much the same circuit.

[Wyatt]

 

I have always heard never buy a Silverface Fender. Never much of an explanation besides being told they sound horrible. What's your experience with this? Do they actually sound that much worse than their Blackface counterparts? What are the actual mechanical differences that would account for them sounding so much different? If I'm looking at a Bassmna what should I expect to pay for both a Blackface and a Silverface?

 

 

This is blown way, way out of proportion.

 

The BF are generally built better and use better construction methods (wood cabs vs. MDF, removable baffleboards vs. glued-in, better lead dress on the BF, etc.). This made a big difference is selecting one versus the other when prices were reasonable. They also compromised with some improvise bits and pieces in the SF circuits to cover up some lead dress issues and the fact that they were being less picky selecting tubes, plus they went to a 5U4 rectifier (much cheaper than a 5AR4, so that required more robust power transformers with higher voltages and more current available on the 5V tap (which is why you can use 6L67's ina SFDR, but not a BFDR or DRRI).

 

Tone-wise, the BF are generally revered for their dirty tones, they are often warmer and smoother when breaking up, and they break up earlier. SF are generally cleaner (some few slightly more sterile) and can be a little harsher when breaking up. If you want that clean, sparkling Fender tone, you'll probably be happier with a SF.

 

The ultralinear transformer versions are consider very bright and sterile. This is because of a design flaw, they retained their noraml negative feedback loop, but the ultralinear output transformer already supplies NFB, they weren't supposed to use a NFB loop with UL OT's, but they did. It's a quick fix to remove it.

 

I'm not a fan of blindly "blackfacing" SF amps, I think it's a waste of money. All amps can be modded, all can be revoiced and there is no right or wrong circuit for any one user. Why spend money (or in my case, time) just to achieve some random "standard" that may or may not fit your tastes. If you have issues with the amp, have it modded to address those issue...in essence, have it custom tailored. Besides there are too many variables between BF and SF to fix with just circuit changes, they used different PT's, different caps, and then there are speakers and tubes. I think the estimate is that there is a huge 40% tolerance in circuits between vintage amps because of component drift. All the caps have been drifting lower for 3 or 4 (or more) decades, all the resistors have been randomly drifting higher for 3 or 4 (or more) decades, so no to '66 BFDR's will ever be the same today.

 

These days the BF sell for a lot more than SF, and they'll appreciate faster, and as long as nothing breaks they'll hold their value relatively well. But if you blow the OUT or something, the value just halved. The SF's are still better deals, and if you can deal with the maintenance many need after purchase, they are even better deals and better built than RI's. But people are getting over SF bias real fast, the values have been going up now that BF's are mostly priced out of reach.

 

But I add the caveat, I don't recommend vintage amps across the board because they are better deals if you can maintain them yourself, otherwise, you are looking at $60-90/hr in bench fees...once you find a competent, reputable tech. But generally, once brought up to speed, they should be good to go for years. I currently own a '50 Gibson GA-20 (which is the last vintage amp I'm restoring), a '60 Fender Tweed Deluxe, a couple of Fender Champs (one heavily modded). From now on, if I want a vintage deign, I'm building it from scratch with new parts. Fenders are built like tanks (as are marshalls), butfter dealing with the GA-20 and a couple of Supro Thunderbolts, plus other old Harmony's, Supro's, etc., I'm tired of replacing all the cheap parts that non-Fender builders used. And, like Help!I'm a Rock! I also own an Allen (Accomplice). The Allen's are like super-BF's, even warmer and more aggresive than BF Fender's, I modded mine to be cleaner, smoother, I like to say I silverfaced it.

 

As for the Bassman, BF heads are a relative bargain compared to the more famous reverb combos.